911 and E30

[chaf]

Originally posted by Dan J.
Anyway, as cars have become more sophisticated they get easier to live with on a daily basis...but perhaps at the cost of character.

Truer words were never spoken. Lately I'm just amazed every time I get in any newer car: "This thing's so quiet! This thing's so smooth! This thing's so fast! ... This thing's so... boring..."

[KobaltBlau]

I'm dubious that the 911 has a problem with turn in relative to an E30 M3, I've driven both on a track. Perhaps you can explain more what you're referring to.

I would encourage anyone who hasn't to ride with a very experienced 911 circuit driver at a track, in their well set up car. the weight distribution and whatever other black magic they have allows amazing cornering dynamics in the hands of an expert, if you're used to what's possible in a front engined RWD car.

[chaf]

Originally posted by KobaltBlau
I'm dubious that the 911 has a problem with turn in relative to an E30 M3, I've driven both on a track. Perhaps you can explain more what you're referring to.

Dunno how much is weight distribution and how much is suspension geometry, but my (stock) 911 at least does not have the magical instantaneous "grab" at the front when turning in that a stock M3 has. Also, steering feedback at turn-in - again I'm talking about a stock '78 here - isn't as good. I generally don't have a lot of trouble getting around 3.2 Carreras on the track either, for what that's worth - although of course at that point you're comparing non-stock cars with different drivers and it's basically meaningless.

[dd74]

I would think the 911 would have less "problems" with turn in only because most of its weight is in the rear. Heavier front torsion bars may cause slower turn in, but your Carrera is stock, right?

In any event, from an OEM baseline of both cars, physics being what they are, more weight on the front end, as is the case with the BMW, would cause it to turn in slower than a 911.

[chaf]

Originally posted by dd74
I would think the 911 would have less "problems" with turn in only because most of its weight is in the rear. Heavier front torsion bars may cause slower turn in, but your Carrera is stock, right?

In any event, from an OEM baseline of both cars, physics being what they are, more weight on the front end, as is the case with the BMW, would cause it to turn in slower than a 911.

I'm certainly no expert, but... My suspicion would be that one can have either not enough, enough, or too much weight on the front from a turn-in perspective. The problem with too much weight is self-evident, but even too little weight should be a problem, going back to good ol' F=µN.

I don't know what the official weight distribution spec on the M3 is, but a moment with Google brings me one claim of 48-52. I find that plausible. It's my understanding that a 50-50 weight distribution is a desirable and good thing - at the very least, it's certainly not a nose-heavy car.

[dd74]

Originally posted by chaf
I'm certainly no expert, but... My suspicion would be that one can have either not enough, enough, or too much weight on the front from a turn-in perspective. The problem with too much weight is self-evident, but even too little weight should be a problem, going back to good ol' F=µN.

I don't know what the official weight distribution spec on the M3 is, but a moment with Google brings me one claim of 48-52. I find that plausible. It's my understanding that a 50-50 weight distribution is a desirable and good thing - at the very least, it's certainly not a nose-heavy car.

I'm no expert, either, Michael. And certainly can't comment on the M3's driving habits on the track. But boy-oh-boy, I'd sure like to find out what those driving habits are!

[nostatic]

Originally posted by chaf
Dunno how much is weight distribution and how much is suspension geometry, but my (stock) 911 at least does not have the magical instantaneous "grab" at the front when turning in that a stock M3 has. Also, steering feedback at turn-in - again I'm talking about a stock '78 here - isn't as good. I generally don't have a lot of trouble getting around 3.2 Carreras on the track either, for what that's worth - although of course at that point you're comparing non-stock cars with different drivers and it's basically meaningless.

It's all how you drive it. If you try and drive your 911 like you drive your M3....well, the 911 isn't going to work as well. Trailing throttle oversteer is your friend...use it wisely.

Plus if your stock 911 has tired suspension that isn't going to help matters.

[donstevens]

I agree 100% with Dan J. Older cars have much more feel at "social" speeds. I had an old 320i with a wheezy 1.8 and modified suspension. Aside from the fact that the direct drive fan made a lot of noise I could drive the snot out of it around town, have a lot of fun, and hardly anyone would notice. The 325is is similar, has a little more grunt, and that sweet sound makes it a real pleasure to drive.

I also agree with Chaf that the E30 M3 is a very different car than the 325is. It is really pretty amazing the two can look so similar, have similar performance numbers, but behave so differently. I'd like to own one some day.

Don

[agabriel]

deathpunk dan, are you really comparing an '86 Honda CRX to a BMW? Those two cars are worlds away.

My second car was an '86 CRX, I have owned an '86 911 for a few years (loved it to much to let it sit out at night in anything other than a garage, and I don't own a house yet...), and I currently own an '00 E46 328Ci. Although the '86 CRX was good in the turns it had no power unless it was going down (1.2 lr engine?) hill, also it was down right scary in weather as it was so light. The CRX had little acceleration, granted once at speed it did alright but the tires were so small and prob not designed to be pushed to the limit. The Porsche 911 was the most fun I have ever had driving, it was such a great car. However my current BMW comes in a pretty close second to the '86 911 and I like it more than the Boxster. The steering on the BMW is extremely nimble and it does great in the turns. The engine in the BMW also has pretty good acceleration even up hills. All and all for a commuter type car (throught traffic) I think the BMW is a great car. I'm not sure who in there right mind would want to sit in Boston traffic in an '86 911. I have done it and it was nuts the car is not comfortable at all in traffic.

[deathpunk dan]

I am saying that for sheer grins my ZC -swapped 86 CRX si with 135 or so hp was just plain more fun to drive. Does that make it a better car? Obviously not. But I find my 95 325is to be somewhat bland, thats all. You don't have to preach to me about BMW virtues. My father and I each own E36 coupes and have a combined 370k on ours. The M3 is a different story, and the E30 M3 is incredible fun to drive. I was simply lamenting that I have been at a point in life where 1 do-it-all car had to suffice and the compromise was a bit stultifying. Do you find the steering on your E46 to be too light at low speed? just curious.

[agabriel]

deathpunk dan Ok; I see what your saying - that makes sense. The e46 has power steering so its definatly lighter the 911 at slower speeds. I find that I can feel the pavement really well with it. I also find it does a good job finding good arcs in the turns. I think its reposnisive and I can deal with the rest.

[wfbal]

I didn't know the E30 M3 was that much different from a 325i.

I gess I should try to test drive one someday.

[chaf]

Originally posted by wfbal
I didn't know the E30 M3 was that much different from a 325i.

I gess I should try to test drive one someday.

Ohhh, yeah. Whether you think it's better than a 911 or not, it's PRETTY ^&*%&$ AWESOME

[cvfncrew]

Wow, there is a lot of BMW owners here. I just picked up a (E46) 2004 330ci ZHP and its a great daily driver.

[jinos]

I've had both cars 1988 e30 m3 and a 1990 325 IS and they are not the same. The 325 has an upgraded maf,chip,headers,exhaust,strut,etc and trust me it is not the same as an e30 m3. Yes the 325 is easier to maintain than the m3 but when it comes to turns on canyons or track it will outrun my 325 anyday. I was a bimmer fanatic before my I rode my friends 964 turbo and ever since then I was a porsche person.

[wfbal]

As you can see from this thread, we can go both ways!

[KobaltBlau]

Originally posted by chaf
Dunno how much is weight distribution and how much is suspension geometry, but my (stock) 911 at least does not have the magical instantaneous "grab" at the front when turning in that a stock M3 has. Also, steering feedback at turn-in - again I'm talking about a stock '78 here - isn't as good. I generally don't have a lot of trouble getting around 3.2 Carreras on the track either, for what that's worth - although of course at that point you're comparing non-stock cars with different drivers and it's basically meaningless.

I think there are a few factors here. Probably your '78 has worn tie rod bushings and could benefit greatly in turn-in steering feedback if you install the "turbo" tie rods. May also have worn bushings elsewhere in the suspension.

Second, I think the caster settings of the two cars are significantly different (M3 has a couple degrees more) and may affect turn in feel.

Third, the M3 has power steering and probably a faster steering ratio. no doubt this affects the feel a bit.

Fourth, the 911 really needs its front suspension loaded by braking just prior to turn in. There is some technique to this weight transfer. The need for careful weight transfer is partially a property of weight distribution. However, we have seen a lot of successful racing vehicles with around the weight distribution of the 911, so I don't think you can say the 911 weight distribution is bad.

Last, certainly tires can be a huge factor.

I'm not saying a stock SC (or similar) turns in better than a stock E30 M3, maybe it doesn't. but there are a bunch of factors at work.

[austin552]

Sold the 325, bought a 911 and never looked back.

[smdubovsky]

Ok, I'll throw my 0.02 in.

The E30 M3 and 325 ARE the same. In my race group there are 4 E30 M3s and 6 E30 325is (and 2 911s, and 1 996. I have done more engine swaps in the M3s then there are cars, and have built more cages and converted all but 2 of the 325s to SpecE30. Inside all that is different are the seats (and the little dash controls). AFAIK, Except for springs, shocks, & swaybars (which are luxury car soft on both stock vehicles): The rear end is identical except for LSD, R&P ratio. The front end is the same except for the control arm & rear control arm bushing (The M3 front control arm is aluminum to save unspring weight but has the same geometry.) ALL of which are easily replaced to better then M3 specs. Rear: Offset trailing arm bushings (adj camber & toe) & LSD. Front: offset control arm bushing gets the M3s caster, and a camber plate gets even more camber. Add springs/shocks/sways and it would eat a STOCK M3. Now, the M3 does make marginally more peak power but the 325 romps on it in the torque delivery department. The SpecE30 rear end (3.73) really hurts it though. 5th just isn't useable at the track.

Summary: Anything that can make a M3 fast can be used to make the 325 just as quick (other than the engine). The wheezy, rattley, noisy S14 just makes you THINK your're going faster

SMD (who has both one of the 911s and one of the SpecE30s in the group)

[serge944]

Unlike my previous 944s, I wake up and know I wont have to get greasy head to toe every morning.

On top of that, it is comfortable, reliable, and easy to maintain all while being fun to drive.