Suspension, $3000 later: Issues

[Fassi]

Thank you, Burgermeister. This is actually my second 911 and I'm aware of the torsion bar characteristics. I don't mind a firm ride. The harshness I'm experiencing is beyond what is normal even for a Turbo. You're right that ride height can be a compounding factor, but that was one of the first things that was ruled out.

[Elombard]

I had a 911 pull hard to one side before I did a garage 3 point CB. Totally cured.

I am sorry but you are going to have to go somewhere else and spend more money.

I think the tire mis-match could be part of the harsh problem. I know on my 73 the old track day tires were tremendously harsh on the street.

Can you do any of this yourself? the string alignment and tri point CB are well documented here and not terribly difficult...it is time consuming.

[s5uewf]

Every time I get an alignment I get a sheet of paper back with all the settings on it for my records, so I can make further adjustments from a known point if required for tuning.

You should have a paper from your mechanic with your alignment settings on it.
With that data, others may be able to offer more advice.

It sounds like you have an alignment issue, as others have mentioned.
$100 for rear shocks sounds low, too.

I recommend you find a new mechanic.

[ben parrish]

"Labor was $1800 for the bushings"

WOW!

[Fassi]

Sad but true. That included all the bushings, front and rear...and the alignment. lol


@s5uewf

Yeah, I never got that printout. An hour of labor for the rear shocks is about right, no?

[Chuck Moreland]

Numerous red flags. I don't know the shop, and everything you say here is coming second hand. I'm reluctant to be critical based on a second-hand accounting and perhaps there is more to story (usually is), but based on your words I flag several concerns.

a) Skipping the corner balance - Corner balance that is off will make the car pull just as much as an improper alignment. As Grady aludes, improper corner balance is the same as the "weight jacking" that the roundy-round guys use to make the cars turn left on their own.

Anytime the control arms or spring plates come out of the car, corner weight is upset and a corner balance should be performed.

My money says this is the reason your car is pulling.


b) Mechanic says he didn't need the installation tools - Big red flag. Then he didn't follow the installation instructions. If these are in fact Elephant Racing control arm bushings, it is impossible to install them (properly) without using the privided tools. Something is amiss.


c) "Wait for the bushings to settle" - if they were installed properly, there would be no need to settle.

d) Didn't provide the alignment settings - why not? Have you asked for them? You need to know if the alignment is correct, which of course can be the cause of the pull.

e) $1800 to replace the bushings - That's 18 hours labor, give or take. This is a pretty big job, but that's a generous number.




Left lock issue - is the tire rubbing the inner wheel well at full lock?

What is your ride height? What are your tire sizes?

[brads911sc]

Wow. Id find a new mechanic.

[Grady Clay]

WOW

How is that for “CUSTOMER SERVICE”?

We are so lucky to have businesses like Elephant Racing and Pelican Parts in our little Porsche world. Where else would you find THE supplier chime in to help solve a problem? Chuck posted here, he didn’t just call his customer. This way everyone gets to see the issues, the diagnosis and the solutions. Impressive.

I sure wish the Forum had been around during the 20+ years I was in the Porsche business (I retired 20+ years ago).

Best,
Grady

[Fassi]

Thanks for weighing in, Chuck.

A) That's right, he suggested the corner balance was unnecessary.

B) Yes, they are in fact Elephant Racing bushings. I raised the issue of the proprietary tools with him at least three times (once at the outset) and alerted him to the fact that it was probably impossible to properly install the Elephant racing bushings without them.

On 10/6 I wrote:

"Here is the installation video I mentioned before. I'm somewhat
concerned because Elephant told me it was impossible to install the
control arm bushing without using their tools. In fact you'll see in the
video that he says that "these tools are critical to the successful installation.
You can't do it without it."

Again in the product comparison video he insists it's "impossible" to
install an OEM spec bushing without the tools and make a point of
saying that the competing product was altered (less compressed;
significantly larger inside diameter) to permit tool-less
installation.

I apologize for belaboring the point, but could you please confirm
that the Elephant Racing control arm bushings were not somehow
modified to get them to seat? Please don't misinterpret my question, I
have faith in you, but I'm a bit confused about how we got it
done"

His response suggested that the claim the job couldn't be done without the tool was made only to sell the tool, and his experience made them unnecessary:

"No problem,,how else are they going to sell there tool they probably made a thousand of?....Don't miss understand ,however I have been doing this for 20 years and the "tool" was not available then and I just as soon do it the way I know works to keep the process In motion.."

C) Since the bushings were installed, he has blamed them for the misalignment. Today I was told that rubber bushings are difficult to work with precisely because they need to be broken in.

D) I was not provided with them. In all fairness, I didn't ask for them either.

E). I went back and looked at it. The total for the bushings alone was exactly $1728. That included the four wheel alignment and ride height adjustment. I also paid an additional $268 for miscellaneous work unrelated to the bushings.

The tire is not rubbing; the wheel just feels loose somehow.

I don't know the exact ride height offhand. The wheel arches are about 3/4 inch above the tires (205/245).

[ben parrish]

So, he never answered the question as to how he got the bushings in without the tool? What exactly is the "20 years experience" method?
I bet that if you were to look at those bushings, you would see some creative sanding done on them.
Seriously, find another mechanic and see what this guy has done to your car.

[911st]

HD shocks are pretty close to being a sport shock and will give a sport type of ride. I belive there are Sport, HD, and Comfort - shocks but the comforts may not be available here. I would stay with the HD's.

Tires are a large variable in ride harshness. Last track day I talked to an SC driver with full suspension and race tires. He said he bought a new set of street tires for his other rims and if he knew they would ride so nice he would have gone up a size or two in torsion bars.

Bushings have some effect on harshness but not to much.

Stiff springs and or sway bars are another direct factor as to ride quality.

If one compairs the weight front and rear to the effective wheel spring rates, the front is actually more stiffly sprung than the rear per pound. Thus, having a noticeable stiffness difference in the back, assuming you still have stock springs, dose not add up.

How old are the brake lines. When they age they can swell and retain pressure which may create some pull. Just jack up the side that pulls and see if there is any drag.

Corner balance I do not suspect should create a pull issue in a straight line I would think unless it is way off. It may make for unmatched handleing side to side.

If you want to see if you are way off, jack the car up by the factory jack point, remove the tires on that side, lower to normal height, and measure from the ground to a point near the torsion bar front and rear. Then put it back to together, drive around the block and do the other side. The measurements side ot side should be pretty close. It is good to disconnect the sway bars first but this should let you know if you have a lot of pre load.

Having one wheel slide under hard braking when the tires are warmed up may also an indication of out of balance suspension.

Might allow look at the front strut tops side to side and see how they are centered and if they are nearly the same from side to side. I would not expect them to be exactly the same but they should be kind of close.

Just some thoughts.

[speeder]

Forgive me if this comes off harsh but your mechanic is a jerk-off who doesn't know what he's doing and you've been ripped-off royally. If you paid w/ a CC, file a complaint and get your $$ back for ALL of the labor and take it somewhere else that has a good rep for 911 suspension work and that owns a set of CB scales.

Why you would want to maintain a relationship w/ this guy is beyond me. He grossly over-charged you and mucked-up your car, period. Anytime significant suspension work is done on a torsion bar 911, a proper 4-wheel alignment w/ CB is called for. Why on earth would anyone not want to do it? It's a piece of cake if the rest of the work/assembly was done correctly and w/o it you can wind up w/ a *3-legged chair* even if ride height looks OK. It always needs to be checked, he's dead wrong. And he installed the bushings wrong.

Get a labor quote from a good, well-known Porsche shop like TRE Motorsports in CA. for installing those bushings and doing an alignment w/ CB. Use that as a guide when shopping for a shop in your area. Use the local PCA or this board to find the good suspension place for Porsches in your area. If you have to drive 50 miles, do it and take the train home.

Another thing, and it's the best general advice I could ever give: always use specialists in life wherever possible. Suspension work requires a suspension specialist. A Porsche suspension specialist. Using specialists for anything, (not just cars), is usually cheaper and a lot smarter in the end. There is a guy in another thread who let the tow truck driver who picked-up his 911 rebuild his engine w/ predictably disastrous results. That's like getting a vasectomy from your butcher. Your story is not as extreme but of course the results were a huge FAIL. Hope you get it sorted soon, it's all easily corrected as long as you get your $$ back.

[304065]

Wow. Get a new suspension shop immediately. Call Bob Miller from At Speed Motorsports for advice or hook up with the Dorkiphus VA Pelicanheads. Home - Porsche, BMW, Mercedes and Audi Repair and Performance Service in Maryland and Virginia

[javadog]

In addition to the above advice, I'd like to add that some shops have the equipment to set camber and toe, but not caster. Uneven caster can cause a pull to one side, as can the weight imbalance that I suspect you have, from reading your description of right turns.

Also, a turbo can have a little harsher impact noise from sharp bumps if the rear wheel bearings aren't right.. A bad bearing can make a sort of hollow knocking sound. If they have never been checked, you might consider it, if nothing else resolves the problem.

JR

[Grady Clay]

Fassi,

WOW
you are getting some seriously good advice.

Keep your head up. We can help you get through this successfully.

Perhaps these guys were simply incompetent but not less-than-honorable people. Even if trying hard, they were less than successful. There may be the case for you asking for all your money back (and more). Approach them with respect and ask.

The ‘-and more’ part can be damage to your 930-only trailing arms (bananas) if improper bushing installation damaged them. I hope that isn’t an issue as replacements are difficult and expensive.

You will find there are many area Pelicans and PCA members willing to help you. You need to reach out to them. Pelicans around the world have expertise to offer via the Forum.

Best,
Grady

[diy83sc]

As a reference, I upgraded my suspension with Elephant parts myself and can attest that it is a big job. However, I also did my own alignment using strings, lasers built into levels, a level for camber, rulers, etc., and came out spot on; didn't have to wait for settling of bushings or the like. I did contact Chuck for help when I didn't understand fully the instructions or when in doubt. The only thing I eyeballed is the caster and was told by a friend to set it back as far as it goes. For me, it was too much of an investment in parts and time to assemble without good solid advice. Seems to me that a portion of the install wasn't done by the book.

I second the opnion on caster. To try and figure out if caster might be your pull problem, find a relatively straight/flat stretch of highway and ride in the left lane and note the pull, ride in the center, and then in the right noting the same. Sometimes the crown of the road can influence the direction your wheel wants to go in. If you are in the right lane and it still pulls hard to the left, I'd think it's probably more than caster. Someone will need to chime in if it appears to be caster as to which side to move forward.

[911st]

No argument on the parts cost if you bought them from ER.

$1800 is less than two full days labor.

It took a full day to just get my car's ride height and corner balance correctly so the non adjustable sway bars could be hooked up without adding preloaded and messing up the CB (my weight in driver seat).

I would think a really good Porsche race shop should be able to fully rebuild a 930 suspension, align it, and CB it within two days of labor charges but not positive.

[MotoSook]

No offense to Chuck, but I seem to recall some posts with homebrewed rubber bushing installation. But who knows how the wrench installed the bushings.

I'll reiterate what was previously stated that there is no "set time" for bushings and a full suspension rebuild should have include a corner balance and proper alignment. It sounds like a lot of eye balling was done in this case. The wheel wobble at lock definately a problem.

Check the castle nut holding the ball joint to the A arm. If there is movement, get someone to move the wheel while
you look at the castle nut, A arm pivot points ( bushings)
and shock nut on top of the strut mount. Also is the shock gland nut or collar properly installed on the strut?

A look (where you can see the rubber) at the bushings should tell you if they are grossly miss-installed. Do they look poorly inserted? Are all the nuts and overs normal? If the bushings weren't properly I stalled things won't have fit properly.

Rare harshness - bump stop issue?

Fassi needs to provide more techincal info after inspection.

[jeromyrwks]

sounds like the left front corner has too much weight on it. corner balance.

Jeromy

[500_19B]

I am very interested to learn how this goes. Right now I am rebuilding my suspenison with Elephant rubber bushings, Bilstein HDs etc - much like your course of action. And the primary reason is to reduce ride harshness, especially in the rear. It is not so much the feel, but rather the sound that I don't like.

I imagine it likely has already been checked, but have the rear sway bar mounting brackets been checked for cracking?

Good Luck!