Factory AC pressure switch details

[dshepp806]

It's not really (even) an "argument", per se. I think it all to be very empirical,..and that's exactly what Kuehl has always stated/suggested. No ther parties have provided any empirical data to support their contention...a reading of the threads (relevant to this) will prove this to be true.

If the readers here could get wwest to cough up some answers to direct questions, then we'd getting something accomplished.

It's (dreafully) obvious what the problem really is (ahem).

Best!

Doyle

[ganun]

About the airflow thru the front cond, it depends, on my car the front air dam blocks horizontal airflow so only air from the fan gets to the cond. On models without the air dam the cond can get incoming air from the front.
Feeding the fire.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by tirwin

PS - of all the topics that people could argue over I never though it would be this. Why is that? Is it too subjective? Lack of empirical evidence? I don't know...

Oh, there's plenty of evidence and scholarship on the subject. Just like any other subject where folks get enamored of their own opinions, the data and scholarship can be "mined" for stuff to suit one's fancy - extolling the data that supports your view, while conveniently leaving aside that which does not agree.

In addition, the general cultural climate that says it's OK to substitute actual fact with unsubstantiated opinion, then treat that opinion as "fact" that must be disproved...

I leaves us with this toxic pool of filth in every AC thread where the folks living in fantasy AC land must be corrected and refuted multiple times, even after they have been refuted previously.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by ganun

About the airflow thru the front cond, it depends, on my car the front air dam blocks horizontal airflow so only air from the fan gets to the cond. On models without the air dam the cond can get incoming air from the front.
Feeding the fire.

This may be true, but the design of any particular condenser does not cause this, it's the location of the condenser on the car.

[JAR0023]

Originally Posted by wwest

Yes, when the electric fan is the major, or only, cooling airflow source. But at roadspeed the vertical orientation of the fins BLOCK most of the cooling air resulting from roadway speed.

Look at the cooling fin/vane orientation, arrangement, of the factory front lip condensor for comparison, open to BOTH vertical (fan) and horizontal (roadspeed)cooling airflow.

Are you out of your mind? Do you really think all that air passing under the car, under the valance and chin spoiler is magically making two 90* turns and is flowing front to back through the front condenser?

Ever heard of a man named Bernoulli?

-J

[howard freeman]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Wwest,

Again, your lack of experience is amazing considering how many threads you post on.

But, since you always have such positive things to say about our products, as well as my comments, I might was well just ride the little SEO wake you have made.

Yes, our Kuehl Fender Condenser with fan certainly does blow away just the front serpentine condenser. However you are not comparing apples to apples.

Whether a 911 or 930 owner needs just a better front condenser, or
the Kuehl Fender condenser or a combination of the 2 or more all depends
on several factors.

But, in the mean time, I think your exhaust has fouled up this this thread enough for any readers enjoyment.

Thanks ror the wake dude!

Damn Charlie, slug feast going on here. Who is that guy??? Exhaust is definitely fouled up. Smells like mine after red beans & rice
Howard

[dshepp806]

Yeap, it's the repeated refutations (as in "broken record"),...or, even, repeated
data requests for substantiation of a "claim". Khuel has provided much data to this forum,..all observable, measureable,....and certainly of "empirical points".

As to "the general cultural climate", I sure as hey hope not to be party to "anything or anyone" that thinks it's ok "to substitute actual fact with unsubstantiated opinion". I hope my friends don't take that route , either. (vast majority do not)...... Opinion is just that,.."unsubstantiated". Somewhat of an oxymoron. "Contention" would be a bit better....

Now,..mmm,....science? THAT'S another matter entirely. Totally "testable".....

Let's (really) test.

Best!

Doyle

[brads911sc]

WWEST prove your theories or stop commenting. For years now you have preached your baseless theories with no proof. First it was binary switches, then it was trinary switches. first it was a simple $30 spal fan, then it was spal fans that cost $150 to get the volume of air you say is needed. so which is it? what data have you provided? first you say you never slam Kuehl and his expertise, then you disparage him. First its, he knows his stuff, then its all snake oil. Are you bipolar? they make meds for that! For years now you are taking that magical trip in July to test your theories in a climate that sees ambients temps above 80 degrees. Just DO IT! Yet he is the only guy who actually published any data. he is the only one who has sold anything that has worked for anyone. The only person your solution works for is yourself and even that is doubtful since it is never hot there... which is why you fail to offer any proof. No one cares about 10 year old Lexus vehicles. No one cares about spal fans and switches. what we do care about is cold air on a hot texas day. and I get that with the Kuel setup. AC systems are systems. The sum of the parts is greater than each piece individually sold. the 911 system has many flaws. All one needs to do is look at the 993 system and its dozens of major changes to see that. yet even this proof doesnt change your point of view. stop trying to ruin every thread with mindless jibber jabber and unproven theories. I am beginning to see that you can't handle the truth. you just want to be the center of attention. the king of your keyboard. we are all tired of the constant rehashing of ideas that no one has ever proven. Keuhl has published data proving that his produced cold air. thats all he advertises. so whats wrong with that? if you want to sell a cheaper solution, the shut up and prove it. we are all listening.. and have asked in the last 20 threads to produce data. i don't think you know how. maybe you should team up with KelogGes and you can both do the reach around and prove your theories while making each other feel better about your lack of real knowledge...

[tirwin]

I'm reminded of the story that Southern story-teller Jerry Clower tells of a coon hunt with Marcel Ledbetter, best coon hunter on earth....

One night Jerry and Marcel were out with their dogs when they treed a coon up a huge sycamore. Marcel, a firm believer in giving a coon a fighting chance, climbed the tree to shake the coon out. But it wasn't a coon, it was a lynx (that's kinda like a big ol' bobcat), and it went after Marcel something terrible. The tree was a-shakin' and a-quiverin' from the battle. Marcel was getting torn up. Finally, desperate, he hollered down at Jerry, "Shoot, shoot, this thang is killin' me." Jerry hollered back, "I'm afraid to shoot, I might hit you". Marcel hollered back down, "Just shoot up here amongst us, one of us has got to have some relief!"

That's kinda how I feel about the A/C topic. Just shoot up here amongst us, we need some relief.

Can we please get back to an intelligent level of discussion?

You know who you are... Fans are great. Trinary switches are awesome. Barrier hoses aren't necessary. There is a new condenser technology that is totally awesome. You've stated your opinion. Saying it any more will not accomplish anything. Can we give it a rest, please? There are other questions and issues on A/C that I and I'm sure others would like to discuss without having the conversation monopolized over and over and over again.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by tirwin

You know who you are... Fans are great. Trinary switches are awesome. Barrier hoses aren't necessary. There is a new condenser technology that is totally awesome. You've stated your opinion. Saying it any more will not accomplish anything. Can we give it a rest, please? There are other questions and issues on A/C that I and I'm sure others would like to discuss without having the conversation monopolized over and over and over again.

But stating these things is not the point. The point is to jam one's finger in the eye of Charley Griffiths. The dude has a serious man-crush on Griff, and *that's* the point.

That's why there is no "science" good enough to shut the guy the hell up.

[howard freeman]

I love Jerry Clower .
RIP Jerry

[kuehl]

Yes gentlemen, some of the AC threads are amusing.
If I have diverted the topic, my apologies.

Mike, aka MConn,
I guess we can assume your first question relative to the pressure switch
featured in the factory schematic has been addressed.

On your second question and comment about T'ing the switch and R-420a.
My first choice is simply to replace the hose assembly for the compressor to deck lid condenser outlet and provide a new barrier hose assembly with the pressure switch mounted on a T in the hose because this particular original OEM hose tends to be one of the first we all have to replace; because of the heat and it see's and movement from opening and closing the engine deck lid. As an alternate approach we could offer you a T fitting between the compressor outlet and the deck lid hose with the switch on it, however you would have to remove the 'snorkel' air inlet from the air filter box as it will touch it; some say the snorkel does not do much and many car owners remove it and sometimes drill large holes in the air filter box; frankly I don't know why they do that other than to change the 'tone' of that section of the orchestra, alike going from a clarinet to an oboe, maybe Doyle would like to share something on that, or maybe someone has a dyno charts they'd like to share.

With regard to R-420a from RMS: this type of refrigerant is on the EPA approved SNAP list. I'm guessing its 80+ % R134a and the balance is 142b. Frankly we have never used it as our philosophy is to use what is readily available (R134a or R12) in the event you need to have your system serviced by a professional AC Tech; you don't want to foul up his recovery machine with blended refrigerants and get him pissed off; as most shops do not have a 'scrap gas' recovery tank. If you use R-420a and you want to follow the rules, you'll need to use charge port service adapters specific to that refrigerant, probably an 9/16"-18 pitch thread with RH threads on the high side and LH threads on the low; which makes me ponder if you need special adapters for the ends of your service gauge/hose set? And, you'll need a conversion sticker (dark green) specific to that blend; its nice to have a refrigerant conversion sticker in the engine compartment just in case someone whom is unaware of what you got in there does not get surprised. With respect to your non-barrier stock hoses that are now 25 years old... hmmm, I can't say R--420a is going to last any longer than R134a or even R12. I would suggest inspecting the 2 hoses under the tub adjacent to where a lift pad may have crushed them, and the hoses to the drier as sometimes things move and a tire may have rubbed it.

I understand you are on a tight budget and seem to want to see if 'things are going to work'. So, all I can say is consider the money are you going to spend on the R-420a, plus the time.

Then, ponder for a moment this: Let's say today is July 29th, 1987. You enter a Pcar dealership in SC. You admire the brand new 1987 Targa sitting on the cool comfortable 70F degree show room floor. The salesman knows you want to drive it so naturally he hands you the keys and the 2 of you take the new Targa out for a spin. You drive through the local streets and he navigates you over to some of the rural side roads that have plenty of curves. You love the way the beast handles. You even consider stopping the car and placing a dime on the road, drive over it and try to tell if its head's or tails.

Then the salesman directs you to the entrance ramp to the nearest major interstate. You punch the throttle and push it into 2nd gear. The next thing you know you on the main highway and finding 3rd gear as you pass the 18 wheeler on your left. You friggin love it! Then you settle down with the flow of the traffic. The salesman points out the other car features: stereo, the funky levers for fresh air to the left of the radio. Its mid afternoon and the sun is just getting near its peak, the outside air temp is now 90F and rising. You start to become aware that the inside of the Targa is bit warm. The salesman directs your attention to the 2 knobs in the center console. He turns the right one on and then the left. In a few moments you start to feel cool air coming out of the 3 primary AC vents. You adjust them to your liking and settle back in the seat. You play with the radio, its not terrific but who cares, the engine sounds more exciting. The salesman let's you play and softly talks you into driving back to the showroom. You park 'your' new beast, walk around and admire it. The salesman suggests that you both go inside the showroom where it is more comfortable. He let's you lead the way into the showroom, not because he wants you to feel you are in charge but rather because the back of his sports coat is soaked in sweat. You work through the price, its high, but you are going to drive away with this new toy now matter what, frig what the wife has to say; she'll learn to love it. This all happened one beautiful Wednesday, you will never forget it.

Then the next thing you know its Sunday! You left the beast parked in the garage for the past few days, don't want any dust, dirt or kids paws getting on it. You pull her (not the wife) out of the garage and let her sit outside where the sun's rays are beaming off it like lasers. You wipe it down; amazing how the dust does not stick on a new car. Ponder it for a while. You go back in side thinking you'll finish up your coffee while the neighbors gawk at her (the car, not the wife). The wife in the mean time has her back to you, shouting out orders, reminders, the honey due list. You keep shaking your head up and down (amazing what we will do for woman and cars).

3 hours later and you finally escape. You jump in the Targa, make it out of the driveway, drive past all the neighbors houses ... beaming, a smile from cheek to cheek. You thought about taking off the Targa top but the wife wants you back shortly. And then you notice. Things are a bit heated more in your brand new cockpit than back at the house. So you find the 2 knobs in the center console the salesman pointed out. Your eyes keeping going back and forth between the road and the knobs and finally you get it. The AC comes on slowly, a bit warm, but maybe it seems cooler? Oh what the heck, it must be the wife that got your temperature up. You punch the gas and drive through all the local roads. You ponder taking out on the freeway but the wife wants you back in a half an hour. The 30 minutes seem to go by so quickly and you are starting to sweat.

You become aware of some things. The steering wheel is slipping a bit in hands, the stick shift feels a bit sticky, and the smell of the new interior is starting to remind you of a stop over you had to do once at Newark Airport; god the smell, and you also noticed the Budweiser factory off to the side, yuk! 'Oh, what the heck you say to yourself, I'm overheated frustrated and not relaxing with my new ride'. And then you think about how the heck those boys can sit in an Indy car for 200 laps with all that gear on? Oh well, good thing you still have your day job.

You find your way back home and park in the driveway. You climb out of the driver's seat feeling a bit tired and a bit disappointed. Short drive, not relaxed, overheated. You slowly walk around your new 911 and you hear a new sound, a crackling noise, the exhaust system is cooling down.

You head back in the house and immediately you welcome the cool house HVAC system. You walk into the kitchen. The wife hands you a big cool glass of sweet tea with 6 ice cubes and moisture just dripping off the sides. You slowly suck it down enjoying every moment of relief. You look at the wife and she says, "So, I know you did not have enough time this afternoon to enjoy your new Targa. But, we have to be at my Aunt Mira's house for the picnic in 20 minutes or so. And dear, I bet you want to drive over there in your new car, but.... can we use my Lexus today, I'll be more comfortable for the long ride. K honey? Tell you what dear, after we get back later tonight I'll help you take the Targa top off and we'll go for a spin. It will be a lot cooler outside. Don't you agree dear?" You shake your head, up and down.

[MConn]

Kuehl,
Yes, you answered my original question - Thanks. I would like to keep this car as original as possible, so I want to see what the factory system can do. Removing the snorkel would not be an option for me, so I'll run without a switch.

It's sad that AC threads have turned into the PP reality show - COLD RUSH.

Mike

[kuehl]

Yes Mike, sometimes I'd rather be in Greenland scraping for minerals, or maybe hacking on the local fairways in November.

You can find a "T" adapter that allows you to have a ps switch and refrigerant service adapter coming off the existing R12 service port, however they can be funky. The more things that 'turn' or twist the more leaks you can have.

If you are going to try to keep the system 'oem' looking, at least replace all the o-rings,
for the component connections: you will need 2 #10, 3 #8 and 5 #6 sizes. And, if you want to take it one step further either replace the 4 orings under the compressor manifold or reseal the entire compressor with a simple compressor kit.

Enjoy, and keep in touch the the PP community on this thread to let us know how well the system is performing for you this, hmmmm, July!

Griff

[GH85Carrera]

Mike, I have owned my 85 Carrera for almost 17 years. I kept the AC system 100% stock and running at the best it could do for 11 years. With the system at peak condition is was just pitiful in 90 & 100 degree heat. It was just OK in 80 degree heat.

Back in 2006 I first contacted Griffith's and I bought his system and I installed it spring of 2007. It is the single best improvement I have done to my 911. It made the car drivable all summer. I have the Dual fender condensers, stock front & rear condensers and new hoses & evaporator. It was not cheap, but top quality never is.

My original compressor died in 2008. I replaced it back then and since then I have not added one single ounce of refrigerant.

I drive my car every summer on a long road trip. Two years ago I had my wife with me and we drove to Savannah GA in AUGUST. One day the heat index was 125!

On one of the day trips my wife actually asked me to turn the temperature UP while we were in Savanna area in August, just before we stopped for lunch. That was the ultimate compliment to the AC system.

Griffith's system flat out works as advertised. Even after all these years. The leaks have stopped. I can spend the day at the autocross track, the car in full sun. The car is HOT sitting in black asphalt with no shade anywhere. Run the car hard, having fun on the track. Hop in, drive home the the AC on full blast and be cool and comfortable on the trip home.

[tirwin]

Griff,

We appreciate your help and expertise. Just remember the park ranger wisdom. "Don't feed the bears."

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

But stating these things is not the point. The point is to jam one's finger in the eye of Charley Griffiths. The dude has a serious man-crush on Griff, and *that's* the point.

That's why there is no "science" good enough to shut the guy the hell up.

Hey, I'm not the one parroting everything Kuehl states, SHILLING for him as it were, apparently with no factual basis of your own.

Or, are you simply attempting to justify having needlessly purchased some iniordinately EXPENSIVE upgrades from Kuehl? If so you can easily be forgiven for that due to lack of knowledge of the subject and a distinct probability that you did that long before I began spouting my own theories.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Yes Mike, sometimes I'd rather be in Greenland scraping for minerals, or maybe hacking on the local fairways in November.

You can find a "T" adapter that allows you to have a ps switch and refrigerant service adapter coming off the existing R12 service port, however they can be funky. The more things that 'turn' or twist the more leaks you can have.

If you are going to try to keep the system 'oem' looking, at least replace all the o-rings,
for the component connections: you will need 2 #10, 3 #8 and 5 #6 sizes. And, if you want to take it one step further either replace the 4 orings under the compressor manifold or reseal the entire compressor with a simple compressor kit.

Enjoy, and keep in touch the the PP community on this thread to let us know how well the system is performing for you this, hmmmm, July!

Griff

My advice...

Don't go fixing things that aen't BROKE...!!

[MConn]

Thanks to all for the information. I am now unsubscribing from this thread, so my email inbox doesn't fill up with mud.

Mike

[wwest]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

WWEST prove your theories or stop commenting. For years now you have preached your baseless theories with no proof.

First it was binary switches, then it was trinary switches. first it was a simple $30 spal fan, then it was spal fans that cost $150 to get the volume of air you say is needed.

"LIFE" is just a LONG, hopefully progressive, learning experience. The Spal fans were only a recommendation for Ebay equivalent fan naysayers.

so which is it?

A progressive learning experience, learn as you go, grow...


what data have you provided?

NONE...only theories based on good, SOLID foundation.

first you say you never slam Kuehl and his expertise, then you disparage him.

I only disparage Kuehl for continuing to sell SNAKE OIL. His experience is irrefutable, just that he closed his mind to new ideas years ago, or he still has an open mind but must still be the primary SHILL for his mostly obsolete product set.

First its, he knows his stuff, then its all snake oil.

The two are NOT mutually EXCLUSIVE.

Are you bipolar? they make meds for that! For years now you are taking that magical trip in July to test your theories in a climate that sees ambients temps above 80 degrees. Just DO IT!

Done and DONE! Carrera (Special Edition, diamond grey in/out, tinted windows) trip to central MT, temps well into the 90's east of Ellensburg and beyond, wife and I both comfortable with A/C blower at lower speed, retarded thermostatic switch. Strangely the evaporator froze up several times over high passes. Lexus does the same thing...

Yet he is the only guy who actually published any data.

Data, where/what did I miss, statements, yes, data...??

he is the only one who has sold anything that has worked for anyone.

Not, by far, the ONLY one...

and...

Which car marques were at the top of the "heap" prior to the LS400...?

The only person your solution works for is yourself and even that is doubtful since it is never hot there...

Or maybe works for me BECAUSE it is almost never hot here...!

which is why you fail to offer any proof.

Yes, I mostly only offer well thought out theories.

No one cares about 10 year old Lexus vehicles.

Ls400..21 years.

No one cares about spal fans and switches.

So, just what Spal fan, or close equivalent, is used in those aftermarket fender mounted condensor/fan assemblies?? And Kuehl is going to be mightily disappointed in your "shilliing" capabilities since he is a strong advocate of those (spal) fans and refrigerant pressure switches, just as we all should be, even you.

what we do care about is cold air on a hot texas day. and I get that with the Kuel setup.

No doubt, have I ever stated otherwise..??

AC systems are systems. The sum of the parts is greater than each piece individually sold.

But no "chain" is greater than its weakest link...

the 911 system has many flaws.

Yes, and all I have ever suggested is addressing the "weakest link", primary FLAW, FIRST...

All one needs to do is look at the 993 system and its dozens of major changes to see that.

Yes, or even the 996/997, or the LS400/RX300...

yet even this proof doesnt change your point of view.

Proof, what proof.." Progressive improvements, or "lump sum", whatever.

stop trying to ruin every thread with mindless jibber jabber

"..mindless jibber jabber...taken a good look in the mirror of your mind lately..??

and unproven theories.

Is Einstein"s theory yet "proven"..?

I am beginning to see that you can't handle the truth.

Truth, what truth, that theories are not often easily proven..?

you just want to be the center of attention.

Then stop making it so easy. If you want to disprove my theories then simply put forth a bit of information, theoretical information, in opposition.

the king of your keyboard.

we are all tired of the constant rehashing of ideas that no one has ever proven.



Keuhl has published data proving that his produced cold air.

Show me Kuehl's data, actual published performance data, system analisis.. There is NO question that Kuehl's "system" produces cold air, even just the fender mounted condensor/fan alone for the majority of us..

thats all he advertises. so whats wrong with that?

[B]Due to new technology , new ideas, most of it might well be pure SNAKE OIL, useless, high margin SNAKE OIL at that./B]

if you want to sell a cheaper solution,

"Sell"....not me. I'm "talking" pretty much exclusively to the many DIYers out there in PP land.

the shut up and prove it. we are all listening.. and have asked in the last 20 threads to produce data. i don't think you know how. maybe you should team up with KelogGes and you can both do the reach around and prove your theories while making each other feel better about your lack of real knowledge...

"prove it.."

Theory(1,2, 3) vs fact (a,b,c)

a.) FACT. The addition of two radiator cooling fans to provide additional rear lid condensor cooling when powered along with the compressor clutch resulted in more than adequate A/C system (R-134a) performance in both my '78 Targa amd my '88 Carrera, the Carrera even in the high desert area of WA and MT with OAT consistently above 90F.

1. THEORY. The above solution would likely work well, provide adequate A/C performance even in Houston TX, assuming window tint and NOT triple BLACK (cab.).

2. THEORY. Converting to R134a along with use of a binary pressure switch MIGHT alleviate the problem of long term refrigerant leakage.

3. THEORY. Using a trinary pressure switch to power the front condensor fan post engine shutdown might well be of additional help in alleviating long term refrigerant leakage.

I welcome any and all information, theoritical or otherwise, that in any way serves to refute any of the above theories.