Grassroots Motorsports Project 914

Tim Suddard · 01-30-2004, 04:33 AM

We took our Project 914 to our test track in Ocala yesterday for some final tweaking and testing. We are happy to report that the car ran perfectly on its 150 mile drive to and from the track, ran lap times within 3/10ths of a second of our 1969 911E Project car (which is still basically unmodified) and is faster than both our Mustang and Miata projects (so far) on this twisty go kart track.
Our addition of the Weltmeister anti-roll bar up front transformed the handling. Our testing was done on Yokohama ES100 street tires.
Updates are at our website and another article will be coming out soon in the magazine.
I also drove the 914 back to back with the 911, and while I love the way the 911 looks, I am not ready to trade for my 914.

joes · 01-30-2004, 06:03 AM

Tim, how did you come up with a setting for the anit-roll bar and where did it end up?

lmcchesney · lmcchesney's Garage

Way to go Tim!
Lap times are up here secondary to the cold white stuff.
L. McChesney

Alfred1 · 01-30-2004, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Suddard
We took our Project 914 to our test track in Ocala yesterday for some final tweaking and testing. We are happy to report that the car ran perfectly on its 150 mile drive to and from the track, ran lap times within 3/10ths of a second of our 1969 911E Project car (which is still basically unmodified) and is faster than both our Mustang and Miata projects (so far) on this twisty go kart track.
Our addition of the Weltmeister anti-roll bar up front transformed the handling. Our testing was done on Yokohama ES100 street tires.
Updates are at our website and another article will be coming out soon in the magazine.
I also drove the 914 back to back with the 911, and while I love the way the 911 looks, I am not ready to trade for my 914.

Cool! I'll have to buy that issue too.

jkeyzer · jkeyzer's Garage

Which magazine?

I can't find Classic Motorsports anywhere around here.

Still waiting for my free issue.

david c. · 01-30-2004, 11:42 PM

Tim,

Is there a rear sway bar on your 914? How does the Translog motor perform? I'm thinking of going to Gary for some work on my 912E engine (I'm in Pittsburgh) and I'd like to know what kind of miles you've put on the 914 and what you think of the motor.

David

Tim Suddard · 01-31-2004, 04:51 AM

The anti-roll bar is set about half way. We started there, went both ways and ended up back there after testing. It is amazing how it transformed the car. The car has a stock 2.0 liter rear bar. If memory serves me right every 1973 2.0 liter had them, they were optional on 1.7s that year and optional on all the cars after that.

The engine has two-three thousand miles on it now and uses no oil and gives no trouble. It idles perfectly at about 1000 rpm. Even after some rough treatment on track it still would idle.

I would highly recommend Translog. The shop is a bit messy, not your typical Porsche shop, but Gary really knows these cars, loves these cars and is very honest.

As I mentioned before, the series started in Grassroots Motorsports and will end there. This is part VIII. Classic Motorsports is not available in as many stores yet, but you can order a free sample of either publication, assuming you have not already done so, from our websites.

Alfred1 · 01-31-2004, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Suddard
The anti-roll bar is set about half way. We started there, went both ways and ended up back there after testing. It is amazing how it transformed the car.

Tim, you're saying that the Weltmeister front anti-roll bar is a big improvement over the stock front bar? I also have a '73 2.0 and I would like to know what a good (near stock) suspension set-up is ...

F4i · 01-31-2004, 01:26 PM

I have heard that the brakes were a bit of a problem to sort out. I am considering going with this setup on my car. Any feedback would be great. I do have the mag. But sometimes you can't tell the whole story. Thanks

Tim Suddard · 02-02-2004, 07:08 PM

Our brakes work pretty well. The pads have developed a little bit of squeal becuase the 320i pads actually hang over the edge of the stock rotor. I need to take a few minutes and trim this down.

As for suspension set up, we did outline this pretty well in one of our recent issues. Basically, for light track/autocross use and great comfort we recommend the Shine control arm bearing kit, Koni shocks, Weltmeister 22mm front bar and 100 pound rear springs. For dedicated track use this is too soft, but for dual duty it is pretty sweet.

Alfred1 · 02-02-2004, 07:37 PM

After reading all of the 914 project back issues (up to part VII), I'm definitely going to subscribe to GRM. Tim, you have a really good and clear writing style that I like and I don't think I've ever enjoyed an auto magazine more. My '73 2.0 is going to be used mostly on the street and I picked up a lot good information and tips from your project.

Tim Suddard · 02-02-2004, 07:48 PM

Thanks, I never really thought of myself as a writer. It certainly is not why I got into this game. I just got so tired of being lied to and/or talked down to by so many other car magazines.

david c. · 02-02-2004, 07:59 PM

That's a perfect reason to start a magazine!

campbellcj · 10:31 PM

Hey Tim; I subscribe to both of the magazines and really enjoy them a lot! You have carved out a distinct niche that has not been well-served by the "mass market" automobile press. Keep up the good work!

Anyways, FWIW I would think that a car with stock-ish torsion bars and rear springs, with a 22mm front swaybar, would understeer like crazy!

Popular wisdom around these parts is that the first streetable performance upgrade is more like a 19mm front swaybar and 140lb rear springs! I ran that setup on my previous 914, a 73 2.0/four, and was very pleased with the results. I usually kept the factory rear swaybar connected.

My current car is borderline dedicated racecar, a 73 914-6 conversion, and has 22mm front torsion bars, 22mm swaybar and 225lb rear springs (no rear swaybar). That is a pretty well-balanced setup for our local tracks. The car's tendancies can be tweaked with small swaybar adjustments.

Regarding brakes, on my previous "stock-ish" 73 2.0, I found that pad selection made a -huge- difference, along with ensuring the entire system from m/c to rotors to lines was in as-new condition. I used completely stock hardware with the Porterfield R4 carbon-kevlar race pads and Ate Super Blue fluid, but there are other more street-friendly pads that might have comparable heat tolerance. Once I made the investment in overhauling the whole system, I never again experienced fade or sketchy moments in track events or canyon fun-runs. Another common tip is to use a smaller rear venting clearance setting than the stock recommendation. Lastly, with your 320i front calipers you could consider an adjustable proportioning valve or even a "tee" to eliminate the stock prop valve completely. (Sorry, I don't recall if you already tried these things.)

When you get to a certain point, the need for a bigger heat sink and friction surface becomes evident. My current car has 911SC front brakes with Pagid race pads all around, 19mm m/c, stainless lines, no prop valve, and brakes extremely well.

Obviously, good sticky tires help braking performance too. Here in SoCal, I have been running DOT-R tires on my Porsches year-round for quite a few years.

Cheers,

mike_the_man · 02-04-2004, 08:39 AM

Tim, how come I can't get a free issue in Canada? Bummer. I'd like to look at one before I decide on a subscription.

campbellcj, you're using the stock master cylinder with bigger brakes? Have you thought about upgrading to a 21mm MC? I'm just curious why you kept the stock size?

campbellcj · 02-04-2004, 09:28 AM

Mike - no I have a 19mm (911) master cylinder; stock is 17mm. The 21-23mm m/c would be oversized for these brakes and IMHO are really only needed when you go to something huge like 930/951/993 calipers where you need to push a lot more fluid and move a lot more piston area.

Also the 914/4 front calipers are installed on the rear.

Tim Suddard · 02-04-2004, 11:48 AM

As for handling, I'm real happy with the handling on my car. Naturally where you set the front bar makes a difference and how you like a car set up matters too. Our car certainly doesn't understeer much at all.

As for brakes, I do have an adjustable proportioning valve and am using Magnum/KFP street pads. I have Porterfield R4S pads on my M3 and find them awesome also. I have used these Porterfield pads ona number of projects and have been very satisfied both for street and autocross use.

As for free sample in Canada... It just isn't cost effective. Everyine on the board has told you how much they like our magazine. It also has a 100% money back guarantee. Not much to lose here by taking the leap.

bander · 02-05-2004, 05:32 AM

Tim,
I have been following along with your 914 brake upgrade as I had done the similar swap to 320i calibers a few months before. I followed an other train of thought and removed the original proportioning valve and replaced it with a Tee. Now, it feels like the rears are underpowered. Now the front wheels lock well before the rears come close. Your article on brake bias was right on time and explained the importance of the issue clearly, but left me wondering how it was that you needed a proportioning valve on your 914 with 320i calipers? With it backed out all the way, would the rear wheels lock before the fronts? My experience is quite different.

I am considering changing to a high performance street pad, or putting different ones on the back, but I don’t want them to grab too much because I do not have any proportioning valve. Are you running magnum/KFP on both the front and rear?

I think that my best move would be to put an APV in the console and install the original front calipers in the rear.

Your thoughts?
_________________
76 Porsche 914

mike_the_man · 02-05-2004, 09:57 AM

campbellcj - sorry about that, I forgot that 17mm MC was stock. I guess I've been so used to everyone talking 19mm that I was starting to think of it as stock. My bad!

Tim - I understand about shipping to Canada. It sounds like a good magazine, and everybody seems to enjoy it, so maybe I'll break down and spend a little money on a subscription. Perhaps I'll sign up on the website this afternoon. Are there any problems with getting a Canadian subscription on the website?

Dave Bell · 02-05-2004, 01:51 PM

Tim -

I want to thank you too for the fine articles on the 914 and other cars in you Grassroots magazine.... You have even come up with stuff I have never heard on any of the 914 boards before, like the brace you put behind the Master Cylinder to eliminate residual "mushiness" in the pedal.

The discussion here reminds me that I wanted to sign up for a subscription.

- Dave Bell