VEMS plug and play system for 968

[Eric_Oz_S2]

Actually, that looks like a reasonable deal for a standalone. Although I have figured out how to tune the motronic, it was a painfully slow process and the tuning apps that go with it are pretty primitive. I presume with the vems there is the ability to self tune the fuel based on wbo2 feedback and target lambda maps. I also presume it can automatically compensate for e85 using a flex sensor input to determine fuel type?

I'm also curious how it detects knock, as each engine has a specific knock signal which I the case of the motronic is tuned specifically to each engine. Have you been able to detect and count knock accurately with your setup?

[Raceboy]

Originally Posted by flash968

the 968 does have a TPS. it also takes information from the O2 sensor, 2 temps sensors, the tach, and the MAF. it calculates load based on the signals it receives, and adjusts timing and fuel across over 100 maps, based on those.

And what do you think other engine management systems do?? They use all stock sensors for the same reason, please stop posting the obvious here...

Regarding MAF check, as I said, the ECU can control CEL easily and you can repeat your words as many times as you want, it still won't change the fact that with standalone you can easily pass smog test unless someone removes carpet in the passenger footwell and checks visually.

Now please, as I already asked you, stop trolling this thread with your chip promoting business, you can make your own thread where you can talk all you want about it. Ok?

Eric, VEMS has the knock reference noise table that is used to record normal engine noise in various load and rpm, also has configurable frequency that is directly related to bore diameter. I have tuned my 2.5liter 16v turbo engine, works perfectly and detects knock way sooner than I can hear from the cabin. Regarding 968 (and S2), the knock treshold is so far away without boost that it is actually quite impossible to get it to knock with 98octane fuel (93 over US), knock treshold is ~7-8 degrees past MBT.
And yes, it supports Flexfuel sensor for E85 and allows to configure automatic compensation of the fuel.

[Jfrahm]

I would imagine that it would be easy enough to use a spare output from the VEMS to control the CEL to pass state inspections, or there are timer relays on Ebay for a few bucks (less than $2 straight from China) so the CEL inspection problem is IMO trivial.

A good standalone at a reasonable price is IMO a big step forward as you could get knock based boost control and loads of timing authority. With an electronic boost control, electronic DV you could disable boost due to significant knock events (tank of bad gas) or valet mode. Likewise water or water/methanol injection flow can be factored in.

One of the big issues with boosting the 968 or S2 is IMO the engine's sensitivity to fuel quality and environmental factors. There is little room for error on warm days under boost and the bores can get scuffed with little or no warning.

-Joel.

[Raceboy]

Yes, and with 968 kit the CEL is connected to a GPO so you can easily configure when and how it is lit. You can also use CEL as a shiftlight

[flash968]

i'm not trolling. i am asking the questions that the 968 owners want asked. we've seen a lot of "wonder gadgets" pop up over the years, and some similar to this concept. none of them panned out on the 968. it has been very disappointing. frequently what has worked on the 944 has not worked on the 968.

no matter how you want to spin it, it does not PASS if it is not legal. trying to convince others to do that is conspiracy to commit fraud. please stop doing that. i am certain that the owner of this site does not want to be party to conspiracy to commit fraud. owners are entitled to take whatever risks they want, but it is irresponsible at best to tell them that they will pass, when any decent tech will absolutely look for these things. here in california, many smog stations won't even look at the car if they think it has been tampered with. we have hundreds of 968s here. this is a huge market. we have to be very careful about what we do to our cars.

actually it is quite easy to get the normally aspirated 968 to knock. it's a lot touchier than the 944. been there done that. there are actually a couple of chips out there that create knock in the right conditions, which is why they are no longer sold. ironically they made less power than some others.

back to the questions

can you still use the CEL as a diagnostic tool? that is very helpful to 968 owners. being able to do a blink test is a must with most of those guys, as the hammer is not generally available, and no longer made, and other than the durametric, there is no other tool out there to read codes. will the durametric still work with this?

you still have not shown us anything that indicates that this system can make more power than what we can already get for $300. how can anyone be expected to plop down that kind of cash, and have no evidence that it is worth it?

[Rasta Monsta]

Wow, incredibly poor form to come into a "for sale" thread and argue with the seller about the quality and value of the item being sold.

Highly inappropriate, even for you, flash.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Raceboy]

Gee, I have tuned quite a few 944's and 968's, I think I know a bit how these engines behave. And NO, 968 is not that different than 944 S2 for example.

And yes, you can get 968 (or any engine for that matter) to knock easily if you use crappy gas, with the gas designated to use in this engine (98 octane over here) it takes quite a bit of effort. I said it has very good knock resistance, you said it does not. Are you saying I am a liar? I have 500+hp 924 2.5 16v Turbo (9.6:1 CR, runs on PUMP GAS!), what car have you tuned for example to have ANY significant amount over stock power to even get the engine to knock?

Using an engine management system is everyones own responsibility, how thick can you be? If you don't want to buy it, then don't! But please stop trahsing your bs about how illegal all this is. Modifyng a car is illegal in most countries, will people stop doing it?

I presented you a full standalone system for 968 (and other Porsches) that is easy to use, is easy to install and has loads of features (COP ignition anyone for just additional few hundred dollars?) and better yet, is absolutely the cheapest similar system out there.

With VEMs you don't need CEL as diagnostic tool, you can view every single sensor function in your laptop/tablet/phone and also detect misfiring cylinder.

I asked politely not to troll here and compare full standalone ECU with your chip business and yet you still do. Now, get the f out of this thread if you don't have anything constructive to add or ask. it is quite clear that you will not plan buying it (your are not qualified to buy this kind of product) so from now on your posts will be ignored and if you continue to spam here, I will ask some moderator if they can delete your posts.

[Rasta Monsta]

Word on emissions: where I live, testing is only done in a few counties, and a 1995 or older vehicle is tailpipe (at idle) only. While they do use a mirror to make sure the cat is in place, they don't open the hood. My 2.5 race car passes.

If you don't live in CA, you likely won't have an issue.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[sausagehacker]

I have a standalone and it has improved my gas mileage noticeably, because the AFM is out of the way and I can lean out the car to ~16:1 on the highway and get 34 mpg at sea level. The stock DME uses batch fire...which at idle, succumbs to intake pulse reversion and fuel gets splashed into adjacent cylinders. With semi-sequential or full sequential fueling via standalone, idle is dramatically improved and you actually use less gas at idle to achieve a solid AFR (because intake pulse reversion doesn't affect it as much, hence you don't need to compensate by adding more fuel). Therefore a well tuned standalone can easily get an even better emissions score at idle.

In TX I got this car inspected with the MS unit literally sitting on the passenger seat and the ignition coils in plain view in the engine bay. I know it's not CA but the spirit of the law is to enforce federal EPA regulations and to crack down on people who modify their engines in a way that leads to more hydrocarbons and NOx in the air. A standalone has nothing to hide unless it was tuned poorly.

Anyone who relies on their CEL to keep their car running shouldn't be considering a standalone, that should be obvious.

[flash968]

for the record, i see the obvious advantages of a stand alone, in the appropriate scenario. i just don't see it on a street 968, at least not yet. i'm certainly open though to being proven wrong.

it is not bad form to call into question unsubstantiated claims of a product. this is not personal, nor do i have anything to gain by asking questions. frankly i am stunned that nobody else is asking them.

again, whether or not your particular location subjects you to the kind of testing that we have here or not, and whether or not somebody gets away with things or not, is irrelevant. you cannot make claims that it WILL pass, when it is illegal. that is just plain foolhardy. that is why those of us who actually run legitimate businesses have to make the disclaimer "not legal for use on any highway on any pollution controlled vehicle". it's a pain in the butt, and i wish we only had to pass the tail pipe test, but that just isn't how it works.

regardless of what results on a 924 turbo, or any 944, this is a thread specifically about a system for the 968. to date, there have been NO charts or any indications that this is any better in result than what we currently have seen ON A 968. why not? doesn't it do what is claimed?

the 968 is NOTHING like the previous cars when it comes to tuning. that has been proven time and again by those of us who specialize in the 968. the entire top end is completely different, and results in a lot of complications that limit performance gains from tuning. even simple things, like free-flow exhausts, show huge torque losses on the 968, where they did nothing like that on the 944. there is ample proof of this already out there, including stand alones. that's why i asked for some PROOF. if you have tuned so many of them, why not show us results? if it's better, show us.

for the record, i don't make or sell any chips for normally aspirated cars, and have no intention of doing so. there are already a number of them out there, and there just isn't enough of a gain to be had to justify putting another one into the market.

as for the CEL, one of the big improvements made in the 968, over the previous models, was the incorporation of the on board diagnostics and CEL. like modern cars, this is a huge advantage in maintenance. codes pop up on the dash, telling us something is wrong. we then can easily run a blink test and see if there is anything amiss. it goes beyond tuning. this is a huge advantage to 968 owners, and not one they are likely to give up. do we have to give this up with your system?

i'd love to see this work. it would fill a very large void in the market. show us some proof.

as the owner of the world's largest and most active 968 specific website, i represent over 2000 active 968 owners. i have a duty and responsibility to those members to vet vendors and products. it seems logical to provide the answers to my questions, if you want sales from that group.

[Raceboy]

I don't care who you represent or what is your duty. I asked how many 968's have you tuned and if you are calling me a liar when I said that 968 engine has very good knock resistance and you said that it does not. Now, I backed my claims by telling what I have tuned and what not, you did not do that, instead you keep playing the same broken record about how this ECU cannot do anything.

Now if you cannot come up with a reasonable argument why 968 is not a good knock resistant engine (and I know that you cannot), then as I told you, get the f out of this thread!
Apparently you are too thick to understand the real differences even between 944 S2 and 968 engines.
You think his 968 motor is something of a miracle of the automotive world and that nothing can come even close to the factory solutions. I really feel sad for you... But I don't tolerate your behaviour over my thread!

I will contact a moderator now to delete your bs from this thread. Not responding to any of your posts from now on. Annoyance like you probably means that you don't have a wife or something, wonder how few similar aholes like you come up from your area (like lorenfb)?

[flash968]

i have tuned about 75 968s, some of which are tiptronic, which gets a COMPLETELY different tune than a manual transmission car. that is one that could likely seriously benefit from a stand alone, if only you could show what to expect from it.

i have not said that the 968 system does not have good knock control. i said it had limits. further, i said it was not difficult to make it knock, and that a knock counter was needed in order to know if it was knocking during tuning. i asked what your system could do differently. you still have not answered that.

i have not said that your system cannot do anything. i have asked specific questions about if it can do certain things. to date, you have avoided answering those questions. do us all a favor and answer them. do you have something to hide?

as i said before, i do NOT think highly of the 968 engine. in fact, i said i find it lacking. that is exactly why i spent so much time and money developing things for it. even after all i have done to my blue one, i still find it lacking, and so much that i have ordered a new 991 Targa GTS to replace it.

the moderator has already been contacted about this thread, you advertising on this site, and making claims without showing us proof. i am actually supposed to speak with the site owner this week on a few different subjects. it's long overdue, as he and i have been talking about getting together for a long time, since he practically lives in my back yard. i'll ask him how he feels about this.

[J1NX3D]

Posting in another Flashed thread. Pun intended.

[Rasta Monsta]

What a schnozzle.

[333pg333]

I see it both ways. While Flash could be regarded as having his own agenda in the 968 world I didn't think he came in here to deliberately shoot someone else's thread down. Then some disagreements or unanswered questions arise and the mood gets a little ugly. Shouldn't happen in my opinion. I assume California is a lot different from most other states and therefore some of these questions seem pedantic and unreasonable to the rest of us but could be very pertinent to those living there?

I agree that charts should be shown and preferably before and after on the same car. Overall, I think this system does offer some very good value against going full on standalone with all newly terminated milspec harnesses etc. The value is really paramount once you go forced induction in my opinion.

[Rasta Monsta]

Say what you will, I'll be discussing your fraudulent intent when I have tea with the queen in a fortnight.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[sausagehacker]

The bottom line is, anyone who's looking for a standalone solution already has a need/desire for what it offers. My standalone has been by far the best thing I've done to my NA 944, there's still a lot of room to improve. Even if there were no power gains, having complete control/visibility of the engine management is worth it. That's the real point of standalone.

[Eric_Oz_S2]

Originally Posted by sausagehacker

The bottom line is, anyone who's looking for a standalone solution already has a need/desire for what it offers. My standalone has been by far the best thing I've done to my NA 944, there's still a lot of room to improve. Even if there were no power gains, having complete control/visibility of the engine management is worth it. That's the real point of standalone.

Totally agree.

Race boy - i think to clarify this thread you are best just re-stating the facts and the opportunities that this product provides. People can make their own judgement.

Flash - I think you are being a little bit too critical in your assessment of this product. Best to stop comparing this to reprogramming the stock chips, as I doubt anyone would buy this for the sake of gaining a few horsepower. The stock motronic is pretty slow in any case which limits its response time and ability to get the fuel and timing spot on. I've tried. You can add extra rpm points to the maps which helps, but it still seems to struggle.

Usually one goes with a standalone once the engine modifications start going beyond simple intake mods, etc. It would be fairer to compare this to other standalone units that I presume would have the same issues you brought up. And I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a moderate power gain even on a stock engine. I see no need to post dyno graphs in any case.

I still think this is an awesome product.

[flash968]

i don't have enough information to assess the product. i can see the applications for a stand alone, and this one may be the ticket. assuming it comes with it, i haven't seen the software, anything about the module, a list of the maps it has (or if we have to create things ourselves like cold startup, part throttle 3D, leaded fuel, decel, yada yada), or even a screen shot of it yet, so i can't even comment on that.

all i wanted was the answer to some very basic questions about what it will and won't do. people can then decide for themselves. i had to go through the same thing when i put out the SC kit. look at how many threads and discussions there are about chips. this is the normal process with anything new.

[Raceboy]

Please download VEMSTune from here: Vems.hu - VemsTune main site, load some default config and browse through features.

If you would have read my posts carefully and not focussing promoting your chip business and bashing the ECU, you would have read that all my ECU's come with fully working maps for stock engine (manual cars, NOT Tiptronic, I have not tuned Tiptronics).

As for dyno charts, my good friend Pieter made many comparison runs on his 968 engine equipped 924, here's one of them. Completely stock, motronic equipped 968 engine made 209 whp on Dynapack hub dyno, with VEMS+E85 it made 228whp. With 98 gas it made 221 whp:


And with this intake it made a whopping 254rwhp: