928 euro - questions

[NRC_Detail]

Hello people, first post!

I found this forum while web searching for answers to my 928 problems. I bought the car 10 years ago not running. It is a 1984 model. From what a more experienced mechanic told me a decade ago the coils are hot but it is not receiving a spark signal.

Ten years later I have come to a decision to either fix or sell the car. Everything else about the car is what one would expect as far as wear.. the interior is shot but it only has 59K miles, and all the other electrics work.

My brother has an american 928s - also a 1984 that was a daily driver until a few years ago. We bought the full manual set because we have two of them. Our joke over the years has been if we put 15 thousand dollars into our cars they will be a wonderful ten thousand dollar automobile. Now that number has seemed to have sunk to a five thousand dollar automobile.

I like the idea of supercharging them, but also I have concerns about modern fuel. I can see them both put on a weight diet with new wheels and tire sizes but at the same time they are automatics. Neither have been in an accident so they are straight with good bodies and little if any corrosion.

So now time has come for a decision, should we retrofit these cars and keep them or bail them out to the community? My hobby time is limited and I would like to not have to continually throw cash into a hole after a one time full refit.

Does anyone have a opinion on what might be wrong with my ignition system? I am mechanically and electrically inclined and have 20 years of shady tree experience. Thank you for your time!

[Landseer]

Could be a two dozen things, or at this point a combo, all simple to somebody that works on only 928. Will take a DIY commitment to work through it.

What would help is detailed pictures of engine compartment with the air cleaner assy removed, and, closeups of fuse box (remove the wood covers first).

That amount of time sitting, though, isn't a great thing. Mice are one peril. Corrosion at block/head interface, speculating here, is another.

Interiors are expensive but available.

Location of car?

[NRC_Detail]

Thank you for the fast reply. I will post pictures later tonight. This car was bought by a person to restore but his life ended prematurely. After reading posts here I felt safe to assume this is the right community for my questions. The car is in Pennsylvania.

[Landseer]

Here's a rambling thread where some of the basic electrical cleanup and some mechanical work is being done on 84 Euro. In this case, main issue was computer grounds and crank position sensor, one of which was causing intermittant miss. Point is that this will all be subsets, especially the electrical, of stuff you will need to do to your car to establish a solid baseline from which to get it running reliably.

There are several owners here of 84/5/6 16V Euros and folks knowledgeable in 85/6 32V USA which share very similar engine management system that can help you. Each of us may have a different approach though.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-928-technical-forum/586148-ground-cleaning-16v-euro.html

[Kiln_Red]

You don't have very much to risk or lose by trying to wake your 928. Alternately, if you choose to sell it as it is then you will not see much reward for what may very well still be a good car. Chris (Landseer) has correctly identified some of the possible causes that may have initially took your car off of the road.

If you want to get the car running again, it will likely include much more work at this point. Of course, by now, your car is in need of other preventive maintenance as well since it has been in a long slumber. I would bet that your fuel pump is frozen by varnished fuel. Start by installing a hot battery and place a jumper wire in place of the fuel pump relay between terminals 30 and 87. You can print off a copy of a fuse/relay chart at 928 SPECIALISTS ONLINE STORE - 30,000+ 928 Parts - 928 SUPERCHARGER KITS!. If the pump doesn't run, then it will probably need to be replaced as well as the filter. Seize this opportunity to remove and thoroughly clean the tank as well as the sending unit. Replace the sending unit gasket.

You should be ready, at that time, to start diagnosing your ignition issues. Take it one step at a time. Confirm one way or the other whether your fuel delivery is okay. If not, make your repairs and then report back. Be very detailed as you document your work.

Good luck.

[stepson]

NRC,
Where are you located?
After you answer some of the questions above, we will be able to help you further.
I, also, believe that you may be in the market for a new fuel pump. These cars and these fuel pumps do not like inactivity. You'll know pretty quick if you jumper the fuel pump at the CE panel.
The '84 Euro is a very different car than what your brother has. 310HP and a power band from about 3500rpm all the way to Redline. It also uses a different fueling computer and different injectors from your brother's car. Lightning quick and nimble, too.

Edit: Do not try to use the Relay chart for your brother's '84 for your '84 Euro. The fuel pump relay for your car is a standard 253B relay. Your brother has to use a specific relay for his fuel pump. IIRC, there are other significant differences in the CE panel relays between the cars.

[NRC_Detail]

So here is the status so far:

I decided to clean up the engine compartment before I took the pictures and well one thing lead to another and now I am in the middle of lifting 10 years of grime off of a white paint job on a titanium car. I was surprised to see the paint does not look awful - whoever painted it did lay things on even. I do not know if I have completely made up my mind about this car one way or another. One thing is for certain - if it is getting put together I am aiming for a refit and not a retro-fit. I am 6'3 and my brother is 6'5 and one of the reasons our projects stalled is because we cannot comfortably fit in these cars. We both fit much better in a TDI beetle or an old CRX than these 928's. That has to be addressed.

So before I post some pictures I am going to take tomorrow to clean the car up. I read through everyone's replies and decided that this is not too much of a project for me to handle. I think I will be able to give everyone here enough information for a diagnosis. I bought the car from the owner of one of the salvage yards in my area. He called me to look at it and made me an offer I could not refuse. His brother was the previous owner. At that time after looking it over I had found enough information (wpozz vin and the twin distributors) about the car to know it was a bit special.

I can see now that there was an attempt to repair the car that went awry. Possibly from the deceased owner removing parts. The shock brace is missing along with the air tubes. I do not know enough yet to know what else might be missing.

From the initial diagnosis in 2000 there was an ignition problem, when I did the basic "fuel air spark" there was no spark and a flood of gas. When I had a more experienced friend look it over he assumed the engine pick up or the computer was the problem. I do not know if this is any help.

I will look through the links posted tonight. Thanks again everyone. I am going to probably print this out and show this thread to my father as an example of how communities of experts on the internet will provide help to strangers. I will consider the project a loss for all the years he has kept it in a corner of his workshop for him not to get a chance to drive it.

This engine has not been turned over in at least 5 years. What is the best course of action with pre-lubrication? I am not going to attempt any repairs without asking here first. My brother was talking to some very helpful individual who had just bought a near perfect 928 from Florida. He told of another car that he resurrected, and decided to drive around the block. It was a 32 valve with a 20 year old timing belt.

[Kiln_Red]

Remove all of the spark plugs and add transmission fluid to each cylinder as you sort out your fueling system. Before replacing the spark plugs, you will want to do an oil filter change and turn the engine over a few times to ensure that only a small amount, if any, transmission fluid is present. The transmission fluid will clean up your bores and rings.

We can, and may, bring you the knowledge you need to get your 928 on the road BUT it will depend on your motivation, money, and patience to put it into reality. You seem like you're up to the task.

[Danglerb]

Get the car working perfectly in factory condition before slipping off the "more hp will fix it" slope. If a good running Euro S isn't fast enough to suit you I will be a little surprised. I don't get out of mine and think, wow more power and it might have been fun, I think, am going to be arrested?

[NRC_Detail]

Originally Posted by Danglerb

Get the car working perfectly in factory condition before slipping off the "more hp will fix it" slope. If a good running Euro S isn't fast enough to suit you I will be a little surprised. I don't get out of mine and think, wow more power and it might have been fun, I think, am going to be arrested?

Great advice! I was thinking of every vehicle I have had with more horsepower than reasonable. I figure that I am going to have to go over every bearing and chassis point before I drive this car.

I do not plan on cruising this car next week. If by the fall I have an operable car I consider that a win.

I will start with the transmission fluid - filter replacement next week. I am moving the car outside for a few days so there is some motivation behind cleaning it up and a fresh wax.

[Landseer]

Indoors storage was fortuitous.

Before pulling spark plugs, use a shop vac and some sort of brush to clean around the bores as the engines seem to collect lots of sand / grit. Then used the vac with a small hose to suck out each chamber, just because. I syringed about 25ml of marvel mystery oil into each plug hole on the 32V car that sat 10 years --- made sure not to even turn the engine over before it soaked. Not sure what it did, if anything.

Most of us here are awakening cars that sat long periods of time.

Patience pays off in this project.

Lets also get it on record that you will need to change the fuel lines in the engine compartment on this car. There are 8 that are 50mm long on the injectors and 4 or 5 others in various places under air filter, and along passenger exhaust manifold that will require this. Very dangerous. Just put it on list.

Further regarding fuel system, on cars that sat this long I always empty and clean the tank, plus replace the strainer that threads to the outlet of the tank, and the small rubber hose that leads to the fuel pump. I replace the fuel pump and the fuel filter. Again, just my method. I don't even wonder if the pump works or not, I replace it and throw the old one away.

[stepson]

Originally Posted by Landseer

Indoors storage was fortuitous.

Before pulling spark plugs, use a shop vac and some sort of brush to clean around the bores as the engines seem to collect lots of sand / grit. Then used the vac with a small hose to suck out each chamber, just because. I syringed about 25ml of marvel mystery oil into each plug hole on the 32V car that sat 10 years --- made sure not to even turn the engine over before it soaked. Not sure what it did, if anything.

Most of us here are awakening cars that sat long periods of time.

Patience pays off in this project.

Lets also get it on record that you will need to change the fuel lines in the engine compartment on this car. There are 8 that are 50mm long on the injectors and 4 or 5 others in various places under air filter, and along passenger exhaust manifold that will require this. Very dangerous. Just put it on list.

Further regarding fuel system, on cars that sat this long I always empty and clean the tank, plus replace the strainer that threads to the outlet of the tank, and the small rubber hose that leads to the fuel pump. I replace the fuel pump and the fuel filter. Again, just my method. I don't even wonder if the pump works or not, I replace it and throw the old one away.

+1 Really good advise here.

[NRC_Detail]

Hi people!

Here are some photographs. I did not look closely at anything yet. Before I start diagnosing things I am going with the recommended shop vac - marvel upper cylinder method.







The extent of the body damage is what is pictured. The other front quarter also has some dings - I believe whoever was driving it could not judge the front end and took out some parking lot obstacles.

I bought the car with one shattered H5 - when I looked up the price of a replacement I took the other out and put it in the back seat as a precaution.

Landseer - My brother and I are doing the same type of job with a 1984 VW rabbit with a K-Jetronic. The previous owner had recently replaced the injectors before the car died a decade ago. It tuned out to be the fuel pump seized from the rust and sludge from the tank. We bought a new tank and fuel pump. We were working on that today.

[stepson]

NRC,
The "24" relays are the same as the "53" relays circuit-wise, but they are a lower amp model. Just an FYI

[NRC_Detail]

Originally Posted by stepson

NRC,
The "24" relays are the same as the "53" relays circuit-wise, but they are a lower amp model. Just an FYI

So the 53 can be used in the place of a 24 but not the other way around?

Does everything in the fuse panel look in place to everyone? What do you think that vampire is spliced into?

[Landseer]

Looks ok. Vampire is sucking on straight 12V, routed from bat postive through starter, alternator and jump post.. to the panel.

Will need to remove and clean panel, and refuse. Find fuses like those in the fusebox, VW should have them, don't use BUS fuses.

17 is scorched and gone, probably fan bearing lube issue, fan didn't turn, burned fuse. So note that. Possibly needs fan resistor coil too. Later we deal with that stuff.

Close ups of all of panel are needed for better review. Remove lower wood --- close ups of plugs are needed too. +.

Want to look at back of panel, too, picking thru wires, looking for shorts or cross melts. Not common, but now is the time to reveal them and write them down on a pad. Time saver.

Sharp pictures please, we are old men here.

[NRC_Detail]

Originally Posted by Landseer

Looks ok. Vampire is sucking on straight 12V, routed from bat postive through starter, alternator and jump post.. to the panel.

Will need to remove and clean panel, and refuse. Find fuses like those in the fusebox, VW should have them, don't use BUS fuses.

17 is scorched and gone, probably fan bearing lube issue, fan didn't turn, burned fuse. So note that. Possibly needs fan resistor coil too. Later we deal with that stuff.

Close ups of all of panel are needed for better review. Remove lower wood --- close ups of plugs are needed too. +.

Want to look at back of panel, too, picking thru wires, looking for shorts or cross melts. Not common, but now is the time to reveal them and write them down on a pad. Time saver.

Sharp pictures please, we are old men here.

Ok I will remove the lower wood and get some better focus. Right now the car is sitting in my "production line" so I will take some more pictures and start gathering up a plan. I have set aside a work area on a covered concrete pad outside. I plan on getting to things when the weather breaks.

Thank you again everyone for the advice and steering.

[stepson]

Originally Posted by NRC_Detail

So the 53 can be used in the place of a 24 but not the other way around?

Well, the 53 relays are what's called for, but the 24 relays are cheaper and more readily available, I guess? I personally have never had any issue with any 24 relay in any car that I have ever purchased. That being said, knowing the penchant for electrical issues in the 928, why screw with a 24 relay when it's just as easy to use a 53?

I was basically just letting you know what you had there, so you didn't freak, and run out and buy a whole bunch of new relays that may have been unnecessarily replaced.

[NRC_Detail]

Originally Posted by stepson

Well, the 53 relays are what's called for, but the 24 relays are cheaper and more readily available, I guess? I personally have never had any issue with any 24 relay in any car that I have ever purchased. That being said, knowing the penchant for electrical issues in the 928, why screw with a 24 relay when it's just as easy to use a 53?

I was basically just letting you know what you had there, so you didn't freak, and run out and buy a whole bunch of new relays that may have been unnecessarily replaced.

So starts the multimeter fun! I am still cleaning things up and my attention had to be diverted today but I ran into a random question about these cars.

I noticed a copper colored filament that traces around the windshield similar to an internal antenna. I am a bit perplexed with a power antenna in the back as to what it is. Did some later model come with an internal antenna and I have a replacement windshield? Or is it for something all together different?

[Landseer]

If within glass, its likely replacement windshield.
If encircling glass, probably a DIY or local effort to simulate antenna in windshield.

84 was remote rear antenna.

85 was first year of antenna in windshield, but 85 also retained the wiring harness back to the left qarter panel to operate a rear antenna. (at least it retained the antenna coax, not sure about the power for the motor)