Spend $80k on...

[Driven97]

I know this thread is dead and buried but my $80k short list based on the given initial criteria would be:

~2011 Turbo S
981 Boxster Spyder / Cayman GT4
Stretch a bit for a late model Carrera T
>2011+ (DBA) Nissan GT-R
AMG GT
R8 manual (manuals are rare and should hold value very well)


Not a GM fan, but current gen ZL1 1LEs are already sub $60k used which is a crazy amount of track capability for the money. Not DD friendly though. Last gen Z/28s can be had for $40k which I think are absolute steals for pretty special (gt3-like treatment) cars.

[QueWhy]

I think the suggestion of the 996 GT3 on the previous page was a good one, I dig the speed yellow too.

[Rick Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by stout

Now, what I really want to know is why the 7MT is a pile of shyte in your view? Because I have long ago decided I am always interested in your viewpoint when it comes to drivelines…

I'd also like to hear.

Mountain Matt, what say you?

[Matt Monson]

Sorry guys, I hadn't been following the thread any longer. I was using a bit of hyperbole when I called it shyte, but to me it defeats the purpose of having a manual at all. The shifting isn't directly actuated. It's got to go through this conversion device because of the order of the gears, which are PDK based. They aren't lined up in the proper order, as shown by the first diagram. The shifter is no longer attached to the gearbox. It just goes to the converter, which in turns does the actual shifting. It's really no different to me than having paddle shifters. It's really just a question of where you put the shifter and people like it because it's in the traditional location. But when you shift a 991 7spd you aren't actually shifting the gearbox anymore.







The manual gearbox is clearly dead when both myself and Pete Stout are saying that we like the PDK.

[stout]

Originally Posted by QueWhy

I think the suggestion of the 996 GT3 on the previous page was a good one, I dig the speed yellow too.

Both that and a very nice 928 are good recommendations....

[stout]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

...but to me it defeats the purpose of having a manual at all. The shifting isn't directly actuated. It's got to go through this conversion device because of the order of the gears, which are PDK based. They aren't lined up in the proper order, as shown by the first diagram. The shifter is no longer attached to the gearbox. It just goes to the converter, which in turns does the actual shifting. It's really no different to me than having paddle shifters. It's really just a question of where you put the shifter and people like it because it's in the traditional location. But when you shift a 991 7spd you aren't actually shifting the gearbox anymore.

LOL! I guess we all have our lines in the sand, but this is a funny one to me. Sure, there are gnomes and waterfalls involved in the 7MT linkage, but I'm not sure that's so much different than the various mechanism we've seen in the past? None of them include sticking your finger into the side of a 901 or 915 or G50 to actuate the gears directly. All have something goin' on to convert the motion at the shift lever into gear selections. And while I agree with you that the 7MT mechanism (which was fairly crappy in the 991.1) is doing a lot more because the shift pattern is very R2D2, the user can't tell, and definitely can't tell in the 991.2. And when you choose third or fourth or second, you get the gear you asked for. If you like driving a stick, it works, and you still get to heel-toe, etc. For me, in a 991, on the street, it's the difference between "just another nice car" and something I can actually interact with and enjoy. And a 997 GT3 Cup taught me that what happens with the shift lever is a pretty small amount of where the fun is, as least for me. The majority of the fun and satisfaction is in the footwork.

Phew. I was worried you were going to tell me it was shyte because of who made it, because of some awful components within, because it doesn't integrate with some of the 991's various systems as completely as PDK, etc. Next question: Do any LSDs fit the PDK-based manual?

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

The manual gearbox is clearly dead when both myself and Pete Stout are saying that we like the PDK.

Yes, you and I agree on track. But on the street, give me a 6MT or 7MT every time...

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by stout

LOL! I guess we all have our lines in the sand, but this is a funny one to me. Sure, there are gnomes and waterfalls involved in the 7MT linkage, but I'm not sure that's so much different than the various mechanism we've seen in the past? None of them include sticking your finger into the side of a 901 or 915 or G50 to actuate the gears directly. All have something goin' on to convert the motion at the shift lever into gear selections. And while I agree with you that the 7MT mechanism (which was fairly crappy in the 991.1) is doing a lot more because the shift pattern is very R2D2, the user can't tell, and definitely can't tell in the 991.2. And when you choose third or fourth or second, you get the gear you asked for. If you like driving a stick, it works, and you still get to heel-toe, etc. For me, in a 991, on the street, it's the difference between "just another nice car" and something I can actually interact with and enjoy. And a 997 GT3 Cup taught me that what happens with the shift lever is a pretty small amount of where the fun is, as least for me. The majority of the fun and satisfaction is in the footwork.

Phew. I was worried you were going to tell me it was shyte because of who made it, because of some awful components within, because it doesn't integrate with some of the 991's various systems as completely as PDK, etc. Next question: Do any LSDs fit the PDK-based manual?



Yes, you and I agree on track. But on the street, give me a 6MT or 7MT every time...

I find people's focus on the left foot, and more specifically the clutch pedal, funny. You know what the beauty of an H pattern dogbox is? You can do a number of the shifts without having to clutch it, and you can left foot brake. It's a different kind of footwork than the traditional street car footwork, but something open wheel and rally racers are quite familiar with. For me, I see no loss when they take away my clutch pedal. It's my direct control of the shifter where I feel a sense of loss. So to me, the 991 7MT is no better than a PDK in that respect. Just give me the paddle shifters if you're gonna do that.

I've been daily driving a DSG VW for about half a year now and absolutely love it. I leave it in sport mode all the time. If I want to take control of the shifting all I have to do is grab a paddle, and it automatically reverts to manual shift mode. When I want to give it back, I pull down on the console shifter and the little "S" pops up again and it goes back to it's thing.

I'm really looking forward to Bill Rader finishing up the sequential installation in my Cayman. To be able to drive that car, with left foot braking, no lift shifting, and an all around motorsports experience on a daily basis is gonna be fun. I'm going to need to relearn driving a dog box. My Subaru has been parked for so many years I've basically forgotten all that I've known about that style of driving. Depending on the timing of it all, I would like to fly into Vegas and then drive the car to SoCal to visit a few shops. Then up to NorCal to do the same, before driving across 80 to get home. If I do, I will be sure to reach out and give you a chance to drive it. While the Germans beat me to doing it first with their Saedev installation, their car is a racecar and not street legal. We could take my car on a run on the old Excellence test loop in the North Bay.

I dropped the baby PDK LSD from the product line last year. That gearbox has been showing reliability concerns on track. And people were trying to blame the LSD. Given that I was selling fewer than 10 a year I decided to just pull the plug. I have every confidence that the failures will just keep happening. And then someday someone will figure out why, fix it, and once they do I'll put them back on the market.

I continue to make a PDK LSD to replace the PTV version. It also fits the GT4 Clubsport/MR racecars. We call that the "big PDK diff". That diff fits the 991 7MT. If you've got a 7MT car you are driving these days I can hook you up.

[matt930s]

Who needs the tech forum! Great stuff MM.

MattR

[Driven97]

Are you saying that the shifter has no mechanical link to the gearbox at all? Like, actuators put the car into gear, and the shifter is just electronic switches?

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Seriously I should have know this is what you consider fun. Not much you can do with these either. I can build you a 700 whp Gulf R that would be a lot more fun.
.

FRS has the same HP and weight as an air cooled 911. You must not be a fan of those either.
I like to drive a slow car fast, as do many driving purists. No thanks on anything over 300hp.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Driven97

Are you saying that the shifter has no mechanical link to the gearbox at all? Like, actuators put the car into gear, and the shifter is just electronic switches?

No, it's not like an e-throttle. It is still mechanical, but it's very Rube Goldberg, IMO.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

FRS has the same HP and weight as an air cooled 911. You must not be a fan of those either.
I like to drive a slow car fast, as do many driving purists. No thanks on anything over 300hp.

FRS PtW: 12.4
3.2 Carrera PtW: 13.8
930 3.3 PtW: 9.5
73 RS Ptw: 10.0

I'll take the latter two over the first two any day. It doesn't need to be over 300hp, to be suited to a "purist", but the two cars you've cited are fat...

[Driven97]

The FR-S chassis is a lot of fun, and the power level itself is fine, but the motor doesn't have much character. It's got a flat spot in the power delivery, and isn't super exciting to rev out.

Something like an old 2.0L S2000 isn't really any faster, but the way it goes bonkers near the top of the rev range makes wringing it out an event. Way more enjoyable for the driver, same speed on the stopwatch. You really can't build a rev monster anymore, at least in something somewhat affordable.

IMO the current gen Miata is a much better modern example of turning a little into a lot, especially the 2019 motor revamp. But then again, that's been the Miata's MO since day 1.

The long gearing saps some of the acceleration out of my plain 3.2, but the way it builds and builds power (and sound!) as revs climb is what makes it so pleasurable.

[Matt Monson]

It's a great chassis, but as I've said before, I 100% agree with your engine assessment. They really should have developed an FA25 NA engine with 225-250hp or put a turbo on it. 15 years ago I got 225hp out of an NA EJ251 and still kept it 50 states smog legal. If little old me could get an extra 60bhp out of their engine, without DFi heads, I have no doubt the factory could do it. They've just chosen not to.

[stout]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I find people's focus on the left foot, and more specifically the clutch pedal, funny. You know what the beauty of an H pattern dogbox is? You can do a number of the shifts without having to clutch it, and you can left foot brake. It's a different kind of footwork than the traditional street car footwork, but something open wheel and rally racers are quite familiar with. For me, I see no loss when they take away my clutch pedal. It's my direct control of the shifter where I feel a sense of loss. So to me, the 991 7MT is no better than a PDK in that respect. Just give me the paddle shifters if you're gonna do that.

I've been daily driving a DSG VW for about half a year now and absolutely love it. I leave it in sport mode all the time. If I want to take control of the shifting all I have to do is grab a paddle, and it automatically reverts to manual shift mode. When I want to give it back, I pull down on the console shifter and the little "S" pops up again and it goes back to it's thing.

I'm really looking forward to Bill Rader finishing up the sequential installation in my Cayman. To be able to drive that car, with left foot braking, no lift shifting, and an all around motorsports experience on a daily basis is gonna be fun. I'm going to need to relearn driving a dog box. My Subaru has been parked for so many years I've basically forgotten all that I've known about that style of driving. Depending on the timing of it all, I would like to fly into Vegas and then drive the car to SoCal to visit a few shops. Then up to NorCal to do the same, before driving across 80 to get home. If I do, I will be sure to reach out and give you a chance to drive it. While the Germans beat me to doing it first with their Saedev installation, their car is a racecar and not street legal. We could take my car on a run on the old Excellence test loop in the North Bay.

I dropped the baby PDK LSD from the product line last year. That gearbox has been showing reliability concerns on track. And people were trying to blame the LSD. Given that I was selling fewer than 10 a year I decided to just pull the plug. I have every confidence that the failures will just keep happening. And then someday someone will figure out why, fix it, and once they do I'll put them back on the market.

I continue to make a PDK LSD to replace the PTV version. It also fits the GT4 Clubsport/MR racecars. We call that the "big PDK diff". That diff fits the 991 7MT. If you've got a 7MT car you are driving these days I can hook you up.

So funny you got to the part about a visit out this way...as reading your first lines had me thinking I'd really like to find a way to spend a day with you. Partly because I always enjoy your posts but mainly because I've never had a chance to spend much time driving alongside someone who works with such a key component every day...

Have to say the 7MT is one of the best gearboxes I've had in any Porsche, not because it shifts the best (while that honor goes to the GT4, I have no complaint with the 991.2 shifter...where I did with the 991.1 shifter) but because of the excellent gearing 1-4 and then the sublime 7th for long runs down to LA. The only thing missing is indeed an LSD, and if I keep this car out of warranty, a proper LSD is a no-brainer...

pete

[matt930s]

Cue Ronnie...



MattR

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by stout

So funny you got to the part about a visit out this way...as reading your first lines had me thinking I'd really like to find a way to spend a day with you. . . .

???

!!!





Like that, Phatt?!?!?

[matt930s]

I can’t quit you.

[Matt Monson]

Forum double dating

[Rawknees'Turbo]

^^^

Sounds kinkier than the kinkiest of kink!

Originally Posted by matt930s

I can’t quit you.

No point in even trying, Phatt!