Former 3.2 owner pondering 964s

SouthCoastPhil · 08-02-2009, 08:04 AM

I read with interest the looooong thread started by flatsixjunky in this forum and appreciate all of the time that Macroni, Kilodawg, trader220, Jay H, techweenie and many others put into that discussion. A re-read of Zimmerman's content on the 964s shows that he thinks they are significantly more expensive to maintain than the 3.2s.

Q1: How expensive are they to maintain?

Q2: Pricing. I keep seeing notes (here and elsewhere) that 1992-94 C2 can be had for high teens, but I am not seeing that, other than in very high-mileage cars. $20 to $30 seems more like it (stock to extensive suspension/exhaust/brakes work on a 1993 66k-mile car owned by a PCA DE Tech & Instructor).

I have looked at Tim Holt's site. Gorgeous cars, but pricey. Visited TruSpeed last month and found them to be high $ for not-so-gorgeous cars. I really enjoyed my visit to EuroMasters last month, but nothing in stock for me there. All that I have seen about Victory is a turn-off. Sloan is waaaayyyy out of budget, even if I did want an unborn, virgin, time-capsule car.

Oh, and I have looked at a few 3.2s of late. $24.5 for an 87 with ok repaint, bad clutch and 90k miles. $18k for an 87 with ~160k miles and no evidence of top end or clutch work.

My goal is to find a well-cared for (DE days are fine with me) straight car. if its all stock, I can modify it as time and $ allow. If it already comes with what I'd call "street +" mods, perfect.

As for color, red is out. Not too keen on black either. Love the blues (mine was Venetian Blue) & some greens. White or silver are fine as well.

Spoilers: Fixed spoiler or motorized, doesn't matter.

Geography: I live south of Boston and travel quite a bit for work, most frequently of late to NYC, OC/LA and San Francisco, so am happy to visit cars on those areas, either pre- or post-PPI. Shipping of course will have to be figured into the total cost. (I saw a car in WY that I loved, but the $1,500 shipping from Denver and all of the airfare costs don't make it financially compelling.

Sites I check include this one, Rennlist, Vast, Autotrader, Oodle and a few others, as well as the PCA (national & local) sites.

TIA for your considered musings.

Phil

Jay H · 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthCoastPhil

Q1: How expensive are they to maintain?

The best way to compare how much more you may spend on maintaining a 964 verses a 3.2 is to go on our host's site and do a price comparison between major components. Price a set of brakes, shocks/struts, clutch package, air conditioning compressor, etc. for a 3.2 car and then do the same for a 964. Labor costs will go up slightly for a 964 depending on the repair, but not always.

Also, keep in mind that the 964 is more complex and has more 'stuff' that can break like ventilation controls that are more expensive, etc. I would think on average you may spend $500 to $1000 more per year on maintenance over a long span of time. Again, these cars are so old that if you buy a dog 964 for $15k, you'll spend tons more on maintenance than you would if you bought a mint 1978 911SC for $15k.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthCoastPhil

Q2: Pricing. I keep seeing notes (here and elsewhere) that 1992-94 C2 can be had for high teens, but I am not seeing that, other than in very high-mileage cars. $20 to $30 seems more like it (stock to extensive suspension/exhaust/brakes work on a 1993 66k-mile car owned by a PCA DE Tech & Instructor).

I would suspect that any decent 964 is still going to be $20k. Two months ago, I was quoted $22k for my concours condition 964 from a dealer. They also told me that they would most like mark up my car enough to sell it at $24,000. Again, this is a pretty nice car that needs nothing with 34,000 miles. The market that I live in is small, so this dealer may be able to get slightly more than what another dealer in a large market might get, but this particular dealer is pretty good at pricing their product to move at competitive pricing.

I would think you could pick up a decent 50,000 to 80,000 mile 964 in very good condition for $18-20k. You'd expect for that price to get car with no major issues and a decent history. Yeah, everyone says that you can buy these cars for $12-15k, but I bet these cars all have issues that are expensive enough to make right. If the car is solid, it's worth paying a bit more for it right up front. I do think that owners with nice cars know they have nice cars and price accordingly. On the flip side, with the economy causing people enough pain, you might be able to find a nice car from an owner that needs (not wants) to part with their car at a below market price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthCoastPhil

I have looked at Tim Holt's site. Gorgeous cars, but pricey.

The premium you are paying for Holt's cars usually pay off in the long run with getting a nicer car right up front. I've heard many good things about Holt's cars over the years and I'm sure he puts pretty good stuff on his lot and either doesn't buy or doesn't sell dogs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthCoastPhil

Sloan is waaaayyyy out of budget, even if I did want an unborn, virgin, time-capsule car.

Sloan cars are really just for the collector. That's the last place I would look for a daily driver or track candidate. However, if I wanted a cherry car that is good for concours, that's the first place I'd start (other than first starting with beefing up my savings account to afford the premium).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthCoastPhil

Shipping of course will have to be figured into the total cost. (I saw a car in WY that I loved, but the $1,500 shipping from Denver and all of the airfare costs don't make it financially compelling.)

Shipping rates from Intercity have REALLY come down in price. I bet you can ship for $1000 now.

The available 964's in good condition are probably relatively slim. Start saving money for shipping costs in order to widen your search area. You can buy sight unseen IF you know what you are looking for, get really good quality pics of the correct areas, trust the seller and, most importantly, get a decent PPI from a shop that you can trust. Many members here can help recommend a PPI shop in a particular location.

Finally, don't skip the 1989, 1990, and 1991 964's. Some of these cars have all the proper updates and can be very, very reliable. There is no difference between the years cosmetically (other than rims and mirros) and mechanically other than the LUK flywheel and cylinder to head updates, all of which can be retrofitted to the early cars.

Good luck!

Jay
08 987
90 964
84 911

SouthCoastPhil · 08-09-2009, 11:55 AM

Thanks for the insights. I keep looking and looking and looking...

Jay H · 08-09-2009, 01:02 PM

I watched every site I could for nearly 2 years before I found my 3.2 Carrera. I was looking for an '86 with 70,000 to 90,000 miles for under $20k in a weird color with a good history, but not in mint shape so that I could drive it. My second choice of year was 1984. I finally found an '84 in a custom color combo with 91k on it. So, it takes time to find exactly what you want after you sift through all the junk out there and over priced cars (i.e. owners that aren't really interested in selling but still have their car "for sale").

Sunroof · 08-11-2009, 05:01 AM

Phil....

Look at the Atlanta market. I believe I saw a bunch of 964's in Autotrader. Get on the site use the zip code 30022 or 30062 and take it out 300 miles (this will include Florida, Tennessee and the Carolina's) to expand the search. Southern cars are not exposed to salted roads and usually run year round. I was always told and I believe that the Porsche market in Atlanta is only second to California. Porsches are everywhere here.

Take a look

Bob
73.5T

GregB7S4 · 08-11-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay H

Finally, don't skip the 1989, 1990, and 1991 964's. Some of these cars have all the proper updates and can be very, very reliable. There is no difference between the years cosmetically (other than rims and mirros) and mechanically other than the LUK flywheel and cylinder to head updates, all of which can be retrofitted to the early cars.

Agree 100%. Check the production numbers for 92+ 964 C2 manual coupes-it is a very small number. If you include the 90-91 cars in your search you will double or triple the number of cars available. The leak and DMF issues can easily be checked on a PPI if the car seems nice. FWIW I bought a nice 91 C2 out of CA and it had the leaks fixed and DMF replaced in the early 90s. My 89 C4 doesn't have the DMF and the leaks were fixed in 1995 and had a full rebuild later. By searching only 92+ you are missing out on some nice 964s.

SouthCoastPhil · 08-23-2009, 05:28 AM

Thoughts on price for a 94 C2 w/high-70k mikes?

JIC Comp Coilovers, exhaust bypass, brake ducts, no door panels or int. carpet, Rennline track mat and pedals, OMP steering wheel, DAS bolt in roll bar, Sparco Seats, 6 pt Schroth Harnesses.

SouthCoastPhil · 08-23-2009, 05:29 AM

correction: high 80's for mileage.

Jay H · 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthCoastPhil

Thoughts on price for a 94 C2 w/high-80k mikes?

JIC Comp Coilovers, exhaust bypass, brake ducts, no door panels or int. carpet, Rennline track mat and pedals, OMP steering wheel, DAS bolt in roll bar, Sparco Seats, 6 pt Schroth Harnesses.

Are you looking for a track car? If so, these "upgrades" might be of interest to you and might be worth something to you.

Some track cars are very well taken care of. Some are just beat to death. What's the condition of this car? That'll determine a price. If she's a track whore that's all cut up with past accident damage, I'd wager it may bring in the low teens. If it's nearly perfect with good cosmetics, drives well and has very solid mechanicals and the changes are pleasing to you, it could see $17k to $21k. I think the track use and 80k on the clock might drive this price down on an otherwise very desireable 964 year.

For me, if I was looking for a presentable street car, I wouldn't even look at this 964. It just takes too much to bring them back to a very nice level after they have potentially been abused.

Jay
90 964
84 911
08 987

SouthCoastPhil · 08-23-2009, 06:52 AM

J,

It appears to be in very good shape. Haven't done a PPI yet, though. I am looking for a car that I can DE as well as street, so I would perhaps do some of these mods to a stock 964. On what do you base your price estimates?

GothingNC · 08-23-2009, 10:48 AM

I just noticed this nice 92 964 just posted.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=493704

SouthCoastPhil · 08-23-2009, 11:17 AM

sweet!

Jay H · 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthCoastPhil

It appears to be in very good shape. Haven't done a PPI yet, though. I am looking for a car that I can DE as well as street, so I would perhaps do some of these mods to a stock 964. On what do you base your price estimates?

I'm no expert. I just base my opinion on 15 years of watching these cars closely in what asking prices are, watching the dealers price these cars, watching what some of the cars bring on this bulletin board (especially the ones that sell and the sellers post their selling price) and then also having bought and sold 5 Porsches myself and helping with all 4 of my brother's 911 purchases. Again, my opinion is just that, an opinion and doesn't mean all that much.

However, I still maintain that a really good 911 will most likely always be a $20,000 to $30,000 car, if not more. Either buy a rough example and spend thousands and thousands restoring it or buy a good one for a huge premium and not have extensive restoration work to do.

The '94 cars are really good examples of the 964 series and may be one of the most solid 911's ever built. There are really no faults on the '93 and '94 cars and seemed to alway bring a pretty healthy premium over the '89 to '92 cars. All the 964 issues were sorted out by the factory by the 1993 model year. I'd take a 1994 964 or a 1995 993 any day as a last of the old school air cooled cars as far as reliability goes.