"911" - the tv show!

[trader220]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Well, before you might have done it unintentionally. Now I can see that you misrepresented my views on purpose in order to belittle them. My "version" of ethics is acting honestly. I'm not exactly sure why you object to that standard, but if you do indeed object to that standard, then we can boil it down simply: Lying increases the take-home. Good for you that you can sleep at night. If it were me, I wouldn't be able to screw my fellow Porsche enthusiasts like that.

I didn't represent anyone's views but my own here. Everyone has their own version of ethics cloaked in the word "honesty". I don't advocate acting dishonest in any way shape or form. I am not objecting to high standards, nor did I equate lying with "take - home" anything.

The bottom line is I don't project my own opinions on what is "honest" on anyone but myself, perhaps that is a lesson you should consider? No one here, including you and I, are the judge and jury on ethics.

As a society there are generally accepted versions of "ethics" for lack of a better word. In a community such as this forum there is probably a "tighter" or more clear standard, or at least there ought to be a higher standard IMO.

I sleep like a baby at night and I have not screwed any of my fellow enthusiasts of Porsches or anything else, why would you imply I have? Its been maybe 10 years since I sold one of my cars or any car for that matter on this board, how am I screwing my fellow enthusiasts as you have clearly implied?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by trader220

I didn't represent anyone's views but my own here. Everyone has their own version of ethics cloaked in the word "honesty". I don't advocate acting dishonest in any way shape or form. I am not objecting to high standards, nor did I equate lying with "take - home" anything.

Wow, how weaselly can it get? Now folks are moral relativists? LOL.

Honesty is honesty. There are no "versions" of honesty. If you shade or hide the truth in any way, you're being dishonest. It really is that simple.

By putting the onus 100% on the buyer, you *necessarily* absolve the seller of responsibility for honesty. That is a zero-sum game. The only area not covered it the area where problems exist that the seller doesn't actually know anything about. The seller can be 100% honest and still sell a faulty product. For that case, the buyer is wise to protect him/herself.

The expectation of honesty, not some hypothetical weirdo case of personal honesty, but what a reasonable person would consider honesty - that's a minimum to expect. I'm not sure why you would object to that standard, and why you would go hunting for some sort of special case in order to throw the rest out.

[trader220]

There are liars and cheats on both sides of every market for every good or service known to man since the beginning of time. Yes there are plenty of dishonest buyers too.

Floor broker steps into the futures pit and says come on guys I just need to buy these last 300 contracts at 72 can I get done at 72? So the market markets move off the offer of 75 and fill him at 72. 1 minute later the same floor broker is back and now he's bidding 74 for another 500 contracts. Should I be pissed and demand that we not trade with him anymore? Come on he said he only had 300 more to buy. I better get my share of sales at 74 since I filled him on some of the 72's. Lesson learned and the market moves on.

Good luck trying to project your own version of what you believe are acceptable ethics are on the rest of the world. You may want to consider that those are your own personal versions of those terms. Those who have others are not liars.

Making an argument that unless one believes exactly as you then they are advocating lying is tragically flawed argument. I haven't heard any one on this board stand up and advocate lying or pulling dirty tricks like the old saw dust garbage as a seller.

[DGriz]

I know this much Eric: You simply want to argue your point...over and over.

That does not make your position right or wrong, but your consistent heavy-handed negativity doesn't win you any points while most of the rest of us are here to talk Porsches and maybe make a few friends.

Is that why you're here? Or do you just like to provoke to receive attention, and generally act in an unfriendly & unpleasant manner? Please, think about it.

[trader220]

Amusing that you cant live by your own words.

Have fun

[DGriz]

Trader - You're 100% right. My apologies. I should not allow myself to get drawn into this nonsense. Thanks for calling me out.

[bwall]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Really? You still haven't actually accepted the premise that sellers *should* act ethically.

Yes, buyers must protect themselves. But *why*? Because there are liars and cheats in the marketplace. If sellers were honest, why would it be necessary for buyers to be on the lookout for every damn scam out there?

And you really think that a potential 915 with sawdust is the only scam sellers do? It was an example. Here's a less-visible example: Sellers misrepresenting the number of owners, in order to create the false impression of long-time ownership on their part. A PPI is going to have a heck of a time sorting that one out. How about lying about oil consumption? For 3.2 cars, that might be the only outward sign of valve guide failure. Due diligence only goes so far. You can do your utmost to protect yourself against the liars and scammers, and still fail. Why should we not also hold those same liars' feet to the fire? Unless you benefit in some way from shading the truth, I'm not sure why you would object. And in asking for a link, I'm going to assume you don't believe that a lying seller has ever put one over on a buyer - even a knowledgeable, diligent buyer? Or were you just trying to change the subject?

Who said that I haven't accepted that sellers should act ethically? Of course they should. But, if they don't, then the buyer shouldn't complain--ultimately the buyer is at fault. Caveat Emptor has been the law of the land for over 2000 years.

Number of owners: look at a CarFax. Oh, wait, that actually costs money. How about documentation? With no documentation of owners, why should I believe a claim on face value? And if anyone believes that a 30, 40 or 50 year old car has only had two owners, well, there's no cure for stupid is there? I saw a 1915 Ford T-model for sale. How many owners did that have? What difference would it make?
Oil consumption: check the exhaust. Any smoke coming out? There's your red flag. Or look at the motor housing. Is it only 'sweating' or leaking? Again, another red flag. Not sure if you are up to the task? Pay a mechanic to inspect the car! Wait, this costs even more money than a CarFax. . ..

What I'm saying is that for every 'scam' (your word) there is a counter-measure. Anyone who is too lazy or slothful to employ these counter-measures does not get my sympathy.

I've had a seller pull one over on me, but I didn't go blame him for 'lying' to me. I questioned how I could have missed the warning sign(s) and what I could do better/different in the future. Live and learn. Smarter and wiser.

And since you brought it up (not me!) I really would like to see the link from this forum where a Pelican finds sawdust in the transmission. Heck, I'll be generous, ANY Porsche part with sawdust in it, not just transmission.

[bwall]

Originally Posted by trader220

Reading Comprehension? Why would you say that, have you had an issue understanding what people have posted? Skewing ones position? Whose position are you attempting to skew?

Who said "lying" was okay?

Who said they were in favor of lying in order to make money?

I dont know whose posts you were referencing with your comments and I am not sure why you quoted my post and then made those comments? No big deal to me though, its a free forum and all opinions are welcome.

In terms of my posts:

I didn't reference anyone in particular, I didn't advocate lying, and I didn't skew anyone in particulars comments. I simply asked who gets to decide whats ethical and why would anyone condemn an entire segment of any market without knowing all of those involved with that segment?

I guess in the end I just find it amusing that some people like to project their own version of ethics on anyone and everyone and unless others accept that version of "the truth" then they're all in the wrong.

Trader, you display traits that have been in NYC since it's founding by the Dutch. These qualities have had great influence on the USA and make NYC unique in the world. It also show that you spent a long, long time in/around that city.

1) Freedom to believe/act as one wishes. ("I guess in the end.... all in the wrong")

2) Freedom of speech--where you again reiterate that all views are welcome on this forum.

3) Honesty

Full disclosure: I'm not smart enough to notice this by myself. I read it in this book:
American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America: Colin Woodard: 9780143122029: Amazon.com: Books

[christiandk]

The issue of this discussion was:

Is it ok to act like you are interested in buying a car to enjoy to get pricing/mechanical advice from this board, and then flip it the minute you buy (steal) it from the seller? After that you make excuses about the sale, but you try to do it again, while getting posts deleted.

Personally, I don't like it. But that is just me.

Is it ok making money buying and selling cars? Sure it is.

I think the discussion over Dicksons buy/sale of the nice green targa has gone far enough, though.

Christian

[trader220]

Originally Posted by DGriz

Trader - You're 100% right. My apologies. I should not allow myself to get drawn into this nonsense. Thanks for calling me out.

I appreciate the apology but I also take no issue with you at all. IMHO there is room for everyones opinions and although I human and therefore flawed in my own right I do try to keep an open perspective on things here. Basically I don't let this forum upset me.

I have no issue and had no issue with your comments but again, thanks for the apology.

Thanks!

[trader220]

Originally Posted by bwall

Trader, you display traits that have been in NYC since it's founding by the Dutch. These qualities have had great influence on the USA and make NYC unique in the world. It also show that you spent a long, long time in/around that city.

1) Freedom to believe/act as one wishes. ("I guess in the end.... all in the wrong")

2) Freedom of speech--where you again reiterate that all views are welcome on this forum.

3) Honesty

Full disclosure: I'm not smart enough to notice this by myself. I read it in this book:
American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America: Colin Woodard: 9780143122029: Amazon.com: Books

Thanks for the kind words... full disclosure, I am not a New Yorker. I lived in Manhattan for about 16 months while I was trading on the AMEX and I was having way too good of a time... "too much of everything is just enough" if you get my drift. I ended up doing the commute from Philly for a long time. It was a lot less expensive then living in NYC and a lot healthier.

None of that diminishes what you said and what I was trying to say. Its an open forum, all opinions are welcome and have a place here.

Like everyone else I occasionally fall into the trap of engaging some of the people whose mission here is to make everyone conform to their opinion and belittle any other opinions. Usually I catch myself after a few posts and just leave it be.

[vintagecarlover]

I made the mistake of making a cpl of comments early on in this thread only to get bludgeoned ruthlessly every time a comment was made that didn't agree with Eric. I've watched at a distance to see that this post is there so that Eric has a spider web and anyone that falls into to web to make a comment gets eaten alive. Commenting here is a 'no win' deal and unless you have a need to have your self esteem crapped on, why waste ur time. I personally can't wait till Eric starts flipping (see his 'say it ain't so' thread) cause there is money saved on a PPI on any of his cars cause he's so honest and forthright that it would be money wasted. deleting this subscription is LONG OVERDUE....

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by trader220

Making an argument that unless one believes exactly as you then they are advocating lying is tragically flawed argument.

That's 100% true.

And it's a darn good thing that nobody in this forum has made that argument.

BTW, re-iterating a logical fallacy doesn't make it true. No matter how many iterations you make, it's still false.

Want to take another crack at it?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by DGriz

I know this much Eric: You simply want to argue your point...over and over.

You don't even know that much, Dickson.

Your olive targa was a perfect example of what could have been a completely honest flip. And you wouldn't have heard a peep from me on it. But you had to go an ruin it by lying in your ad.

OK, the seeking of expertise here under the guise of keeping the car was a little shady, but heck - it's free, and folks give info of their own free will. The implication that folks here are looking to keep good cars is a faulty assumption. I made it, and I have the bawls to admit it.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by bwall

Who said that I haven't accepted that sellers should act ethically? Of course they should.

Then we are in agreement. That's all I'm after. And when I find a seller like Dickson who lies to make his ad copy more enticing, I hold his feet to the fire.

It would be better for all of us if other folks did that as well. And there are legal remedies for folks who egregiously lie to sell product. Fraud statutes exist in every state and at the Federal level.

The only difference for me is that I do not treat very small cases of fraud and very large cases of fraud differently from an ethical standpoint. To me, they are both fraud. The dollar amount involved is not important.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by trader220

Amusing that you cant live by your own words.

Have fun

Of course I can. It helps if you read carefully. If you do not, you might infer something which was not said.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Could we take up a collection to buy SilberUrS6 a new car? I think we'd all agree that our world would be a better place if he would sit down and shut up. The continuous stream of vitriol he emits is so tiring, and every thread he appears on turns into a mudslinging contest. What car would we need to buy you to right the great wrong that seems to have driven you to a constant, unfocused, multi-pronged attack? - Matt

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by vintagecarlover

I personally can't wait till Eric starts flipping [...]

You should probably hold your breath. It's going to happen, and SOON.

Or not.

I have no interest in that. As I have said on more than one occasion. These cars are a hobby, not a business. I'm sorry that I make folks uncomfortable with high expectations - I would have thought that common sense was a little more common among car enthusiasts.

If you had bothered to take time reading what was written, you'd know exactly what my position is. I'm not opposed to flipping. I'm not opposed to profit. I'm opposed to what a reasonable person would consider dishonesty. If that's offensive to you, then I'm pleased to do it. If that's not offensive to you, then you are arguing against a position I have never held.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

C I think we'd all agree that our world would be a better place if he would sit down and shut up.

Matt, you could always block me. It's in the preferences portion of your set up.

Or just not read when I post.