Value of schwarz 1972 911T targa

[coldstart]

I have owned this great car for around 10 years. I am still not definite that I am going to sell it but I am looking at buying another car and space and time are limited.

I am seeking a proper valuation of the car in the current market.

Details about the car:

-1972 911T targa
-Canadian car, 93,000 miles on odometer
-S trim, wheel well trim
-matching numbers including Fuchs, original condition
-bare metal repaint 2 years ago
-no known rust, pans are solid with original paint
-engine runs strong with few performance mods (Carrera tensioners, MSD, Webers, Dansk muffler)
-most original parts included (AC parts, Blaupunkt Frankfurt radio, muffler, etc.)

I have owned it approximately 10 years and loved every minute driving the car.

This 911 was originally black in color from the factory and 2 years ago received a full bare metal repaint in the original 'Schwarz' black.
It is numbers matching (chasis, engine, transmission- confirmed with Porsche over the phone) with no signs of rust. The doors close with a loud, clear ping demonstrating this 911 is extremely solid.

Exterior:
The vehicle underwent a complete exterior bare metal paint job in the original colour from the factory (black) approximately a year and a half ago. Multiple new exterior seals and trim were purchased and installed at the time of painting as required. The car was repainted as it had a previous poor paint job that left ‘spidering’ in the paint, not a result of an accident. I have lots of pictures of the pre-existing paint issues prior to the repaint.

The paint job is good to excellent but is not nearly concourse. The painter was experienced and has painted several early 911s beforehand. All parts were disassembled but the doors were not removed for paint as the jambs were left original. There are no/minimal scratches in the paint. The main issue I have is that the inside of the gas and oil door areas were not painted (even though they needed it). You cannot see the issue until you open the gas and oil doors. This should be an easy fix. I have an OEM Porsche felt-backed factory car cover (from a later 911 with two mirror pockets).

The targa top is in excellent condition and does not leak when washing the car. The targa top was partially refurbished two years ago by a local interior shop as the headliner was droopy and some of the hardware was coming out. It looks and works perfectly even though the top does not get much use. It folds if necessary.

New stock H4 headlights, driving lights (non-OEM), front and rear lenses (repros) and decklid lettering were also added. I have the old 'frog' headlights, Bosch lenses and 'gunmetal' (originally black) decklid lettering (only PORSCHE lettering, no 911T).

Engine:
The original 2.4L engine runs great and recently had very good leakdown numbers.

A new clutch, rear main seal and clutch cable were installed approximately 5 years ago. All of the main oil leak symptoms have been addressed with new gaskets and parts (some of the work was done by a local shop). the car has new lower turbo valve covers, oil sump covers and plugs (I have all the original covers and plugs). The pedal cluster was rebuilt with new bushings when the car was purchased 10 years ago.

New Weber carbs and intake filters were installed replacing the Zenith carbs that were previously on the vehicle. The 911 has Weber carbs (rebuilt and installed 3-4 years ago by a local Porsche shop, Response Engineering). I did not purchase the car with the MFI system (it came with Zeniths) and do not have the MFI system. The car has Petronix ignitor and a MSD box (I have the original CDI box that was still working when replaced). The new system runs very well and the MSD eliminated most of the backfiring issues on cold starts.

Carrera chain tensioners were installed by a local Porsche shop (Mantis).

The original transmission shifts well (4-speed) with no or limited issues. The shift coupler bushings were replaced approximately 5 years ago.

The car came with factory air conditioning which is currently non-operable. The hoses are still on the car as is the under dash unit and the condenser in the smuggler's box. I removed the above engine condenser for increased air flow when I got the car. I have all the AC parts that came with the car.

Interior:
The interior is in good original shape. The carpet came with the car and is in decent to very good shape. I do not believe that it is original but I could be wrong.

The door panels, armrests and pockets were replaced with an original set in much better condition. I have the original set of pockets (with speaker holes and bent trim) and the armrests.

This 911 has one original sport seat (leatherette with cordorouy center) and one standard passenger seat (leatherette with cordorouy center). The car came with two sport seats that were in poor condition and I mistakenly sold them when I bought the car 10 years ago. I have the matching driver standard seat (so three seats that all match with one sport seat). I will need to confirm whether or not the sport seat will go with the car with the seat's previous owner (Christien on Pelicanparts) - CONFIRMED Thanks Chris!

The leather on the steering wheel was redone. I have a spare stock wheel and RS cover from Agla that I was planning on making into a 'fatter' wheel. New coco mats are in the car and look great. A new original-look radio and speaker were installed. I have the original radio which has not been tested to see if it works. The knobs on the original radio are in poor condition but the radio itself is in decent condition (last I looked). I also kept the original speaker.

The non-matching tachometer (1977) that came with the car was replaced with a rebuilt stock 1972 tachometer that works with the MSD unit. A new turn signal stalk and Sucro relay were added.

There is a dash crack between the speaker and the defroster and a crack from the speaker cover forward. The crack from the stereo forward has not progressed and is only a few inches long.

Wheels, Brakes and Muffler:
The five (5) Fuchs wheels are all date matching (1972) and are most likely original to the car. The Fuchs appear to have their original anodizing but the black parts have been repainted by a previous owner (decent but not perfect).

I replaced all four (4) tires approximately a year ago with Bridgestone RE Potenza tires. The spare Fuchs wheel still wears a very old Dunlop tire that may be original to the car.

This 911 has 'S' front calipers (as well as S-trim). A shop (Response Engineering) replaced all of the rubber brake lines and fluid about 2 years ago.

I added a Dansk 2-in-1-out muffler (stock style) 3-5 years ago (I have the original muffler which separated at the intake ports). I have SSI heat exchangers which I plan to install shortly. The current stock MFI heat exchangers are on the car work but have pinhole rust spots in a few spots. They are fairly dirty inside and I don't run the heat as I don't want the exhaust fumes.

Overall:
It is an original Canadian Porsche 911T and its known history indicates that it has never left Canada (Alberta-BC-Alberta-Ontario). The serial number (VIN) is 9112110407 and the mileage is presented at 93,xxx miles. I have some records that indicate that the mileage is approximately correct. I do not know the number of owners but it is likely 3-5 from the documentation.

I have already been offered $50K for it which seems decent but I don't want to see the car resold for $75K the next day because I was uninformed about its value in today's market for early 911s. I would appreciate if Techweenie and other experts would weigh in.

I have already posted on the early 911s registry forums and was told somewhere between $40K and $70K, which is a wide range.









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[coldstart]

[HugoBear]

I think the high end of that 40-70 range is right, around 60-65k. 40 is crazy low and you would have 15 people in one day ready to buy it at that price, site unseen. These things are really going up in value and this type of car will continue to do so, so why sell it? Good examples of this car will only become more and more rare.

[NYNick]

I saw a coupe last Sunday and they were asking $80. Very high. I'm looking at 2 beat up ones that it would probably cost me around $50-60 total to get right.
Techweenie should weigh in here.

[pmax]

Black detracts from the value I would put on the longhoods or targa and this is both, but that's just me.

[techweenie]

From the VIN, the car was MFI as delivered. The 72s built with Zeniths were 91125XXXXX.

I think $50K is a good offer. You might get $55K. The car is worth a bit more in Canada. Exporting to the larger US market is intimidating to some prospective buyers and adds some cost.

In order for someone to successfully put the car back on the market at $75K, they would need to do $10K worth of work to it, IMO.

[coldstart]

Thank you guys for the input.

The offer is from a gentleman in Europe, sight unseen. I may have a mechanic perform PPI and a compression test done to alleviate any potential concerns of a buyer and take some better pictures of the car to show its excellent condition.

There are a few minor issues (driver's door map pocket trim, SSIs and oil return tubes, reinstall blower motor, paint in gas and oil doors) that I will also address to ensure that the car is in top condition.

[NYNick]

TW,
Are MFI"s out there for me to purchase? Both of my prospective T's need them.
How much should I expect to pay?

Nick

[coldstart]

There are MFI systems out there to purchase. Unforunately, the MFI systems have become extremely expensive to buy and then the pump usually needs to be rebuilt (big dollars) and the system setup. There are not a lot of mechanics well versed in old school MFI anymore....

[coldstart]

Hagerty has increased their valuation for most early 911s in their guide this month. For my car (1972 911T targa) the valuation has gone up almost $10K:

Condition 4: $36,000
Condition 3: $54,200
Condition 2: $65,300
Condition 1: $95,500

I would speculate that my car is slightly below a condition 2 car and well above a condition 3 car. This is the reason that I hesitate to sell my car for $50K when Hagerty's guide states that it is $60K++ car. Supposedly, the demand for longhoods (and targas) is extremely strong in Europe.

[coldstart]

The link to the above Hagerty values:

Price Guide Report

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by coldstart

There are MFI systems out there to purchase. Unforunately, the MFI systems have become extremely expensive to buy and then the pump usually needs to be rebuilt (big dollars) and the system setup. There are not a lot of mechanics well versed in old school MFI anymore....

^^^

This is correct. In truth, the best strategy may be to buy a complete engine and sell off the long block. It'll be cheaper. And hey, you'll have a carb setup to put on it!

MFI tuning is a lost art in many markets. Plus, not only does the pump often need rebuilding, but the throttle shaft wear has to be fixed and that's a 4-figure job.

[ficke]

#3 cars could possess some, but not all of the issues of a #4 car, but they will be balanced by other factors such as a fresh paint job or a new, correct interior. #3 cars drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These cars are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws. "Good" is the one word description of a #3 car.
Your car sounds like a solid #3
definitely not a #2.

[silverc4s]

Originally Posted by ficke

#3 cars could possess some, but not all of the issues of a #4 car, but they will be balanced by other factors such as a fresh paint job or a new, correct interior. #3 cars drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These cars are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws. "Good" is the one word description of a #3 car.
Your car sounds like a solid #3
definitely not a #2.

You are right, but we all manage to rationalize our own personal car one level higher. Maybe the last word in the level description should be: Now subtract one level.

[coldstart]

Originally Posted by ficke

#3 cars could possess some, but not all of the issues of a #4 car, but they will be balanced by other factors such as a fresh paint job or a new, correct interior. #3 cars drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These cars are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws. "Good" is the one word description of a #3 car.
Your car sounds like a solid #3
definitely not a #2.

I read the descriptions and I agree my car is between a #2 and #3 car. While it does have the bare metal paint job and excellent condition correct interior there are some flaws and my car is not approaching concours condition.

I do have some incorrect parts installed (radio, SSIs, MSD ignition, Webers, etc.) but I also have all of the original parts except the MFI. The engine had great compression numbers a few years back and runs smoothly with no issues.

You also have to consider that most 1972 911Ts did not have all the S options and trim like my car (five matching Fuchs, exterior trim, wheel well trim and sport seats). The seat alone is worth a few thousand if sold separately.

[ficke]

A number 1 car by the Hagerty definition is "as new"
a #2 car is a #1 car that has been driven, every thing works and is right but has some miles on it. Rubber soft, suspension good, just it has been driven, maybe some paint chips and a drop of oil and dust and dirt on it, the interior shows some wear, everything works and is right. What a two or three year old used car looks like.
a #3 car has things that do not work like the AC ( your car) wrong parts like the induction system and seats etc. ( your car) but new paint (your car) and looks good to the casual observer. Were all the suspension pieces replaced and every piece of rubber when you did the paint? what about plating? if not it definitely is not a #2 car.
By your description of your car and pictures provided it is a #3 not even close to a #2.
I am given you a neutral third party viewpoint, and it is only my opinion based on what is shown.
Buyers judge harder than I am unless they have the "red mist' of desire.
Good luck,

[speeder]

Have someone show you how to photograph a car. It's not too tough and would do wonders for any marketing attempt on this Targa. The ones you took are pretty awful.

[coldstart]

Originally Posted by speeder

Have someone show you how to photograph a car. It's not too tough and would do wonders for any marketing attempt on this Targa. The ones you took are pretty awful.

I completely agree. I did not take any of the above pictures for the purpose of selling the car and they do not depict the great overall condition of the car.

As to valuation, I agree the car is somewhere between a #2 and #3 condition car. There is only $10K difference between them. While I am attached to the car and likely non-objective, I also am aware of the condition of the car as a 10 year owner.

If the selling price of the car is a #3 condition, I may remove all of the aftermarket parts (SSIs, MSD ignition, matching sport seat, radio, coco mats, car cover, etc.) and install all of the original parts. That way I would sell the aftermarket and spare parts (tons) and easily make up the $10K shortfall between a #2 and #3 condition car. Personally, I would rather sell the car with the spares and avoid the hassle and give the new owner a great deal.

[Sunroof]

As my mechanic (owns one of the best Porsche shops in Atlanta, GA and has been around for over 35 years) has been telling me, "ask whatever you want for these cars"..................

If your too high, you will know soon enough. For your car I would ask 75K or best offer.

This market is way to crazy to settle for anything less. Slow down Coldstart and smell the roses!

Bob
1973.5T

[Christien]

Jesus jumping Mary, Hagerty has condition 3s up at $54K? Wow, I'm calling and upping my insurance!

Having seen (and driven) this car, I think you're right in your evaluation of between condition 2 and 3, closer to 2. $70k seems high to me, but then I think all the prices of these early cars are way too high. $40k is definitely too low. If you are indeed looking to sell, I would ask for closer to $60k.

And feel free to sell the driver's chair with it - no problem.