How to get a cheap 993

[dwelle]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Y'all need to quit holding Pelican up as some holy unsullied bastion of DIY car guy purity. Wayne sold the place. It's gone corporate. Have you been in the 911 Tech Forum in recent times? There's often 20 or 30 sticky's commercializing everything. Banned ads up top. Etc. etc. People need to get off it.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1001212-pelican-parts-ecs-tuning-heres-what-you-should-know.html

Adam is a business, a Porsche business. He's not a flipper. He's not a curbstoner. He can be a bit of a braggart at times, but who among us isn't. Can't we just love the cars and not be so hateful towards members of our community who happen to make a living off our hobby?

are you suggesting a more heavy handed moderation?



well put, matt...

[Unobtanium-inc]

I get this same kind of heat on other forums, so much so that I've coined a term to describe it.
You know it's funny, I've been dealing with this long enough that I've actually given a name to it, Baby Boomer Communism. Any time a guy in the business does anything that has a wiff of commercialism a guy like you comes out and starts screaming, "He's trying to make money!!!! STOP HIM!" There is a whole group of Porsche guys who want those of us in the business to wait patiently by the grand dinner table and if called over by one of the diners than he is allowed to talk Porsche, if not, you wait in the corner like a good butler or footman. Well, I shant be your footman.

---Adam, not your footman, but I can probably help with a part.

[pmax]

Whether any of these businesses are freeloading and paying each other or not, who cares !

Many p-car business owners post here but most do contribute to the community beyond just self promotion ... be it adding technical insight to a discussion, helping find a used part, selling stuff directly etc. That's cool.

Even in the technical discussions, the problem with the profit motive is when these business types and their business cohorts and associates get into "technical" arguments about whose products and/or services methods are superior ... those are fun but they do get personal leading to the usual outcome and that's not.

[trader220]

The thing that cracks me up the most is the blanket bashing of all dealers. People use the term "stealership" which is ridiculous. Its wonderful that many people on this forum can and do, do their own work. Most people, especially on newer Porsches cannot and do not do their own work. Being a franchised dealer is far from what it was 10, 20 or more years ago. Margins are razor thin. Most of the people who ***** and complain have no idea how little money a Porsche dealer makes on most new car sales and on their CPO sales.

People are under this impression its a license to print money and there is massive markup on these cars. There isn't. There is no mystery in the price of just about anything these days. Its rare that someone trades you their car at a ridiculous price and its just as rare that someone just pays the offering price on any new or used car. Those days are long gone. I used to laugh when one of my sales people would catch a lead from out of state and it would be some bozo shopping $125k dollar cars and looking for another $200 off the price he already has shopped to the 11 dealers between where he lives and where I was sitting. Really? For $200 bucks you're going to dive 2 hours?

The whole world is the market now. As a GSM I started to take advantage of a program that Porsche offered to start quietly selling cars clear across the country because the market was stronger there and was able to get Porsche to subsidize the transportation. Yes it cuts both ways but all I was doing was exporting (to the other side of the country) the competitiveness of our East Coast market.

Its one of the reasons I had enough of the business and let the franchised world.

[trader220]

Originally Posted by pmax

Whether any of these businesses are freeloading and paying each other or not, who cares !

Many p-car business owners post here but most do contribute to the community beyond just self promotion ... be it adding technical insight to a discussion, helping find a used part, selling stuff directly etc. That's cool.

Even in the technical discussions, the problem with the profit motive is when these business types and their business cohorts and associates get into "technical" arguments about whose products and/or services methods are superior ... those are fun but they do get personal leading to the usual outcome and that's not.

Shills are an issue too... there have been instances where businesses who either sell used Porsche's or sell products and services to this community start threads under different accounts and go on and on about what a great deal they got or how helpful and cheap such and such business was. Over the years a few of them have been outed here posing as "satisfied customers"

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by trader220

Shills are an issue too... there have been instances where businesses who either sell used Porsche's or sell products and services to this community start threads under different accounts and go on and on about what a great deal they got or how helpful and cheap such and such business was. Over the years a few of them have been outed here posing as "satisfied customers"

There were many of those in the legendary, "Hurt By Motormeister" thread; random, new members posting up how they got good service at Motormeister, in a thread were the evidence of that company's habitual wrongdoing was overwhelming. It always made me laugh to see those posts!

[alexl911]

Originally Posted by trader220

The thing that cracks me up the most is the blanket bashing of all dealers. People use the term "stealership" which is ridiculous. Its wonderful that many people on this forum can and do, do their own work. Most people, especially on newer Porsches cannot and do not do their own work. Being a franchised dealer is far from what it was 10, 20 or more years ago. Margins are razor thin. Most of the people who ***** and complain have no idea how little money a Porsche dealer makes on most new car sales and on their CPO sales.

People are under this impression its a license to print money and there is massive markup on these cars. There isn't. There is no mystery in the price of just about anything these days. Its rare that someone trades you their car at a ridiculous price and its just as rare that someone just pays the offering price on any new or used car. Those days are long gone. I used to laugh when one of my sales people would catch a lead from out of state and it would be some bozo shopping $125k dollar cars and looking for another $200 off the price he already has shopped to the 11 dealers between where he lives and where I was sitting. Really? For $200 bucks you're going to dive 2 hours?

The whole world is the market now. As a GSM I started to take advantage of a program that Porsche offered to start quietly selling cars clear across the country because the market was stronger there and was able to get Porsche to subsidize the transportation. Yes it cuts both ways but all I was doing was exporting (to the other side of the country) the competitiveness of our East Coast market.

Its one of the reasons I had enough of the business and let the franchised world.

I'm no expert but I just don't believe this... I personally experienced three separate instances were Porsche dealers were marking up $50-$60K trade-ins by $10K or more (with no CPO). That's at least a 20% gross margin (which is what most business try to achieve). Dealerships are not your friend and don't care about anything but making the most money possible. For example, one seller had agreed to sell me their car privately but when the dealership found out they had a potential valuable trade-in they forced them to trade it or run the risk of "...losing their preferred status at the dealer on new GT releases". Do you really think they're operating on razor thin margins?? Look around your local Porsche dealer... people are lining up to give them money and pay over sticker!!!

[trader220]

Originally Posted by alexl911

I'm no expert but I just don't believe this... I personally experienced three separate instances were Porsche dealers were marking up $50-$60K trade-ins by $10K or more (with no CPO). That's at least a 20% gross margin (which is what most business try to achieve). Dealerships are not your friend and don't care about anything but making the most money possible. For example, one seller had agreed to sell me their car privately but when the dealership found out they had a potential valuable trade-in they forced them to trade it or run the risk of "...losing their preferred status at the dealer on new GT releases". Do you really think they're operating on razor thin margins?? Look around your local Porsche dealer... people are lining up to give them money and pay over sticker!!!

Its easy to site an example here or there. When a dealer takes in a car do you think there are no expenses on that care when they sell it? A set of tires alone is a fortune. Don't forget that the pre owned manager is the also a customer of the service department, nothing gets done for free. Do you think there are no expenses associated with selling that car? How many GT cars do you think each dealer gets? No the big huge well known dealer, I am talking about the 85% which makes up the rest of the Porsche dealers...4 maybe 5 a year in a good year, zero in other years. Guess what else, most of those 85% of other Porsche dealers sell those GT cars at MSRP to their best clients so they're not getting anything. The % of MSRP margin is exactly the same on every vehicle Porsche sells. That's great on a $150k 911, these days most dealers, except the really large ones sell 3 or 4, maybe 5 on average a month. The majority of the rest of the cars are Macans and Cayennes. The markup sucks for them. Call a couple Porsche dealers and see how quickly you can buy a Macan for nearly 10% off which is basically the entire markup. Do the same with a 911 and see how quickly in many markets you can get 6, 7 or 8 % off.

I am glad you know of a few incidences where the dealer made some money on trades... is he not entitled to? What about the times where he has to over pay for a trade just to move a unit and keep Porsche off his back and ends up losing money on that trade? Name a single business who does not try and make money? Funny how dealerships are supposed to operate for the good of the people and forget their expenses. They're the only business not allowed to make money.

[msort81]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

I get this same kind of heat on other forums, so much so that I've coined a term to describe it.
You know it's funny, I've been dealing with this long enough that I've actually given a name to it, Baby Boomer Communism. Any time a guy in the business does anything that has a wiff of commercialism a guy like you comes out and starts screaming, "He's trying to make money!!!! STOP HIM!" There is a whole group of Porsche guys who want those of us in the business to wait patiently by the grand dinner table and if called over by one of the diners than he is allowed to talk Porsche, if not, you wait in the corner like a good butler or footman. Well, I shant be your footman.

---Adam, not your footman, but I can probably help with a part.

Laughable.Rampant egotism on display. What's most amusing is the lack of true self perspective. You're a cuckoo appropriating others nests whilst blocking out narratives with a sense of persecution.

Sheesh the way you frame it anyone might imagine you were curing infectious disease, as opposed to running a junkyard turning over turds on ebay.

[alexl911]

Originally Posted by trader220

Its easy to site an example here or there. When a dealer takes in a car do you think there are no expenses on that care when they sell it? A set of tires alone is a fortune. Don't forget that the pre owned manager is the also a customer of the service department, nothing gets done for free. Do you think there are no expenses associated with selling that car? How many GT cars do you think each dealer gets? No the big huge well known dealer, I am talking about the 85% which makes up the rest of the Porsche dealers...4 maybe 5 a year in a good year, zero in other years. Guess what else, most of those 85% of other Porsche dealers sell those GT cars at MSRP to their best clients so they're not getting anything. The % of MSRP margin is exactly the same on every vehicle Porsche sells. That's great on a $150k 911, these days most dealers, except the really large ones sell 3 or 4, maybe 5 on average a month. The majority of the rest of the cars are Macans and Cayennes. The markup sucks for them. Call a couple Porsche dealers and see how quickly you can buy a Macan for nearly 10% off which is basically the entire markup. Do the same with a 911 and see how quickly in many markets you can get 6, 7 or 8 % off.

I am glad you know of a few incidences where the dealer made some money on trades... is he not entitled to? What about the times where he has to over pay for a trade just to move a unit and keep Porsche off his back and ends up losing money on that trade? Name a single business who does not try and make money? Funny how dealerships are supposed to operate for the good of the people and forget their expenses. They're the only business not allowed to make money.

Of course they are allowed to make money... That's not the point. Just don't cry me a river claiming that they're operating at razor thin margins and doing everyone a favor. If there wasn't LOTS of money to be made no one would be doing it.

[Matt Monson]

I’m missing where trader said they are doing anyone a favor. They provide a service. They expect to be compensated for it.

[trader220]

I guess "lots" is a relative term. IMO there is not "lots" of money to be made as a new car franchise owner anymore. Hence the reason why huge publicly traded firms are buying the franchises to employ economies of scale.

The average Porsche dealer sells in the area of 20 to 25 new cars a month, more than half of those are Macans with very little margin.

[wayner]

A friend of mine had a very early 911 rotting behind his shed for years

It might have been Adam or maybe someone else but the truck showed up and with the money he now has a new GT4

Could he have gotten more?

I asked him
He said who cares

I’m enjoying my gt4 and all I had to do was make a phone call
They even dug it out of the mud

( and he still has an even earlier one that he drives )

[trader220]

Not many rotting mess of a 911 is worth 100 grand, must have been a pretty special car.

[wayner]

And who would find the right buyer on their own?

[ficke]

Originally Posted by trader220

Not many rotting mess of a 911 is worth 100 grand, must have been a pretty special car.

I do not know the details of this situation, but I have witnessed many people who can move on with their Porsche dream when they get rid of their project car. so it is not so much about the money as a letting go and able to try a new direction, like buy the car done.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Originally Posted by msort81

Laughable.Rampant egotism on display. What's most amusing is the lack of true self perspective. You're a cuckoo appropriating others nests whilst blocking out narratives with a sense of persecution.

Sheesh the way you frame it anyone might imagine you were curing infectious disease, as opposed to running a junkyard turning over turds on ebay.

I've been advised by my peers to not feed the trolls....

---Adam

[trader220]

Originally Posted by ficke

I do not know the details of this situation, but I have witnessed many people who can move on with their Porsche dream when they get rid of their project car. so it is not so much about the money as a letting go and able to try a new direction, like buy the car done.

Time is my biggest constraint.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by trader220

Shills are an issue too... there have been instances where businesses who either sell used Porsche's or sell products and services to this community start threads under different accounts and go on and on about what a great deal they got or how helpful and cheap such and such business was. Over the years a few of them have been outed here posing as "satisfied customers"

Yeah, that's a good example where the profit motive really disrupts the entire forum.

"Are these guys speaking for themselves or some business ?"

Hard to tell sometimes.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

I've been advised by my peers to not feed the trolls....

---Adam

Don't play the old and worn out victim card. Respond to people's concerns.

My 2c.