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Turbofrog
 
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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Strange change in my clutch behaviour, KEP or 934+kevlar disk

So far it has worked ok some slipping on higher boost but other vise ok. This summer more slipping on third gear but nothing else. But yesterday it almost left me strandled with no engagement at all so I was lucky to get it home as stopping was a bad idea. Once I had to start it in first gear to clear a stoplight.

I thought the cable had fallen from the adjustment hole but it was right where I had it adjusted day before when it first started this behaviour when hot. So I adjusted it all the way tight and still no engagement so could not get gears when engine running.

But whats the reason for this massive change? Did the pp fail strenght or lose a finger? I dont think the cable suddenly gave up so much. I'm hesitant to take it for a test drive even though it works on my quickjack when I removed the pedalpanel between the pedals.

Are these the part numbers for the recommended sachs 934pp and disk
sachs #88 3083 999 574 
Clutch Pressure Plate
 and 881861999615 organic disk

EDIT: I dont think its a KEP in the car afterall as its the thin style with adapter and it says sachs on it (PP has 3032042099 part number). I just had a kep stg1/2 receipt that came with the car.

EDIT2: I found this post of Toms TK build and the pic of the 934 PP has the same #3032042099 as on mine?
2010: An EFI Hot Rod Odyssey

So if mine has the 934 PP and if my car has a stock size 9.5mm to10mm disk it should not work at all? I'm not sure I was clever enough to order a 8.5mm disk back when I bought my kevlar disk from clutchnet but I ordered it for my77 3liter 930.

TIA.


Last edited by smurfbus; 08-11-2019 at 12:37 PM..
Old 08-11-2019, 05:32 AM
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My Kennedy pressure plate and stock friction disk don't slip unless the clutch is too tight (less than 1mm clearance on adjusting fork) so your clutch may just be worn out.
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1979 930 (475 rwhp at 0.95 bar)
Old 08-11-2019, 09:18 AM
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Turbofrog
 
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I have that 1mm clearance too. But what is weird is that it worked OK cold and then not at all when hot until now that I removed the renline pedalpanel (well its cold now but did not work at all evn cold with the panel). Or atleast it worked now when car was in the air and pedalpanel off so I could really press the clutch deeep.

EDIT2: I found this post of Toms TK build and the pic of the 934 PP has the same #3032042099 as on mine?
2010: An EFI Hot Rod Odyssey

So if mine has the 934 PP and my car has a stock size disk it should not work at all? I'm not sure I was clever enoug to order a 8mm disk back when I bought my kevlar disk from clutchnet.
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Last edited by smurfbus; 08-11-2019 at 12:38 PM.. Reason: edit 2
Old 08-11-2019, 09:48 AM
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Turbofrog
 
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I think I have this disk: https://californiaclutch.com/product/porsche-performance-kevlar-kevlar-pro-clutch-disc-sprung-hub?v=f0aa03aaca95 Part Number: KSP7271

It is for MY1977 930 but I'm not sure it means its 8.5mm like the sachs PP needs according to posts here.

I just sent them question about the thickness.
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79 930: HX40Super, MS3pro+ID1000+044+E85, Ignition: 123/TUNE/MSD6A, BB+2*turbosmart38, WMI. Weight 1110kg

Last edited by smurfbus; 08-11-2019 at 12:45 PM..
Old 08-11-2019, 12:30 PM
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I have the same disk in mine with KEP stage 1 PP. I never heard stage 1/2. Only stage 1 or 2.

Anyway I can only think of two possibilities.
1. The Kevlar disk may be glazed over from excess slipping. I think once Kevlar disk starts to slip then it needs to be replaced.
2. The PP diaphragm spring may be broken (you would noticed lighter clutch action). KEP PP diaphragm spring tends to crack/break when it's subjected to too much clutch throw.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:46 PM
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Turbofrog
 
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I figured my PP is not KEP afterall as it has sachs number for 934 part on it so the question is is my disk wrong size for it. Still it worked ok for couple of yrs which would suggest its close to 8.5mm?Still puzzled why the operation/engagement changed so dramatically?

St
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:49 PM
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I have no idea if the disk is the wrong size for a 934 PP. Did the clutch pressure changed at all? If not then I would replace the Kevlar disk with a Sachs organic disk designed to go with 934 PP. The flywheel and PP may need light resurfacing if they are glazed over.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:22 PM
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The 88 1861 999 615 [ZF disc] is the ONLY correct match for the 88 3083 999 574 [934/935 PP].

It sounds like if slipping in 4th then 3rd, the disc is worn out. Or the fork, releaser or something on the PP is fractured. Perhaps since running a low profile release bearing extension, that has let go in which the release bearing won't disengage.

Unless your have over 650hp
You could run this clutch upto ~600 ftlbs tq

883082999594 = Ruf 930 "5 Speed" pressure plate.
1861568331 = Disc = not compatible with 574 pp.


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Old 08-11-2019, 05:15 PM
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Turbofrog
 
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That would work for me surely. I figured a bend or broken fork might do this while trying to get sleep. Thanks guys. Any idea which pp this 3032042099 is?
Old 08-11-2019, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfbus View Post
That would work for me surely. I figured a bend or broken fork might do this while trying to get sleep. Thanks guys. Any idea which pp this 3032042099 is?

3082 042 099 = Casting number
The actual PN will be etched on the face of the cover.




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Old 08-11-2019, 09:09 PM
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Turbofrog
 
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Right, so using some ???2 073 131 googling I found out it must be 3082 073 131 like this https://patrickmotorsports.com/products/clu-930-116-021-00-sac
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Last edited by smurfbus; 08-11-2019 at 09:50 PM..
Old 08-11-2019, 09:35 PM
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Yes so that is the standard OEM 911 Turbo Carrera 3.0L clutch.

3082 073 131 = No longer available from manufacturer as of 06-2018.

The remaining options are both ZF RE clutch covers or you could run a KEP. My car would chose the 594.
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Old 08-11-2019, 10:25 PM
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Turbofrog
 
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No wonder it slipped first at 1.3 bar and now at 0.8bar. I think my best bet is UK for parts before they split EU. I might try if I can remove the trans by myself with the quickjack. Thanks for your help guys.
Old 08-11-2019, 10:34 PM
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Does this work or is this the nogo 331 disk? Porsche 911 1987-89 / 964 G50 Gearbox : Code: 93011601402/2
They have another with same # without ”/2” but twice the price and its descriped as CLUTCH CENTRE FRICTION PLATE. PORSCHE 911 TURBO 75-77
Code: 93011601402

OR

does the 881861999615 disk work with the ruf 594 PP?

Last edited by smurfbus; 08-12-2019 at 05:53 AM..
Old 08-12-2019, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfbus View Post
Does this work or is this the nogo 331 disk? Porsche 911 1987-89 / 964 G50 Gearbox : Code: 93011601402/2
They have another with same # without /2 but twice the price and its descriped as CLUTCH CENTRE FRICTION PLATE. PORSCHE 911 TURBO 75-77
Code: 93011601402

OR

does the 881861999615 disk work with the ruf 594 PP?
>>>615 disc TO 594 pp = NO


You will want to order the following PNs

+ 883082999594 = Ruf 930 "5 Speed" pressure plate.

+ 930 116 014 02 (SACHS: 1861568331) : Manual Transmission Clutch Disc - 240mm Spring Hub Center (1976-1989) PORSCHE 911 Turbo Carrera / 930 4-Speed Transmission / (1987-1989) 911 Carrera G50 (5 Speed) - OEM SACHS
NOTE: NOT compatible with PN: 883083 999574 : ZF SACHS Performance Clutch Pressure Plate (934 / 935)

+ 930 Release bearing.

When you install, you must ensure that you don't overstroke the pressure plate cover's diaphragm. The pressure plate cover will come with pins that hold the cover fingers horizontal for ease of installation.

God speed!
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:17 PM
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Turbofrog
 
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Duh, I thought the 331 was to be avoided alltogether. This clears things alot. Just buy SACHS original NOT replicas. I did found one 574 kit from germany for good price and shipping only 20eur. Do you think its overkill and too much clutch for normal driving?

I really appreciate your help and time on this forum. Havent found any 594 kits for good price over here.

I checked the clutch opening driverside and could not see anything broken so maybe test drive today without the footpanel. If it runs ok I will postpone this cluthcjob to wintertime.
Old 08-12-2019, 09:40 PM
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Turbofrog
 
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Took it for a testdrive and ended up riding almost three hours without any problems. Earlier I had my wife press the pedal while I sprayed some wd40 to the fork/adapter area. I think it was too gooy to fully operate? Not sure I will put the rennline piece back with this clutch
Old 08-13-2019, 04:39 AM
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Glad to hear you got it sorted out. It sounds like 1, the clutch disc is fading and 2, the clutch may not have been releasing and disengaging all the way. Probably the clutch pedal isn't adjusted correctly with stroke on the new pedal board?

The reason I suggested the 594 pressure plate is because this the the best performance available value and you seem to have the Mode adapter parts. Unless you have over 600 ftlbs that is the one to use. You mention 1.3 bar so that means for sure you need at least the 594 clutch. The "Ruf 5 Speed" as is labeled. Since it is a ZF Sachs Performance assembly, it is special and reinforced. It only comes as PP cover solo and then you have to order the disc separately.

Since I have a history of machining and selling those adapter parts I like to insure they are used correctly! The 574-615 is probably too much for your street car and will cost 1500+$

Another thing to look out for is not wearing out your gearbox internals if your clutch isn't disengaging.
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:10 PM
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Turbofrog
 
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The clutch did not even slip anymore even on fourth but I have only 0.8bar at this point. Took it for another two hour drive after waxing it.

Im a bit puzzled about the sachs 331 disk as it can be bought from 124eur to 500eur and all claim real sachs disk.

The FW is a custom lightened steel unit that has maybe 5000 miles on it. Do you think it should be already machined?
Old 08-13-2019, 10:31 PM
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930 116 014 02 is the Porsche part number and the OEM SACHS 331 disc. The current Porsche North America list price for that disc is $666.80. The batch we have are ~400us for that disc. You can order an aftermarket disc for 2-300 range but at that poimt you may as well buy an aftermarket clutch like the KEP. Pay now or pay later..

The flywheel with low miles should be fine, basiclly you would want to inspect the surface and min cleanup to ensure within spec. Should be fine though. If it is going to slip, that should happen 4th or 3rd gear progressively. Just roll with it until you can't wait any longer.

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Old 08-13-2019, 11:02 PM
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