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River Rat
 
Dave 86 930 Fl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 1000 Islands NY
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AFR Sensor Location

I currently have an Innovate LC-1 wideband sensor with XD-16 gauge. The sensor is mounted upstream from the turbo in the left header collector. This is not a location recommended by the manufacturer, due to high pressure conditions caused by the turbo and extreme heat that will reduce the life of the sensor. In addition, I'm not confident that the AFR values are accurate, which may be a result of the current location of the sensor. I've scheduled some time on a dyno next week and they will be placing a sensor up my tailpipe (i know, i know) and hopefully I can at least set my AFR @ 12.0 - 12.2.

So here's my question, if the folks dynoing my car just place their sensor up my tailpipe, why can't I have a bung welded on my tailpipe and insert the sensor? Seems logical to me ... What do you folks think?

Regards, Dave
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1986 930 - K27-7200, Andial Intercooler, Tial Wastegate, Electronic Boost Controller, B&B headers, Bodart Zork, Leask Adjustable WUR, Full Elephant Racing Suspension w/Adustable Spring Plates and Von Shocks, Wevo Transmission Mounts, Fuel Safe Fuel Cell, Forgelines (9"/11"), Hargett Shifter, Innovate AFR, Cobra CF Seats, DAS Rollbar, Coleman Floating Rotors, Lightweight Interior, Forgeline 17" x 9"/11", 2800 lbs.
Old 12-05-2006, 01:52 PM
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WydRyd's Avatar
 
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Good question. I want to install the same WB controller on my car and was wondering where's the best place for the bung.

There's certainly not enough room between the turbo and muffler inlet. The manufacturer advises it should be approx 6" downstream from the turbo. There's no way I have 6" of pipe between turbo and muffler.

My only option is to put the bung closest to the outlet of the muffler can. Don't put it close to the exhaust tip, because your readings won't be accurate due to pulses in exhaust gas, your O2 readings will be off. Might be more of an issue at idle though?
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Merv
'89 911 Turbo Cab
Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
Old 12-05-2006, 03:24 PM
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OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
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Everyone installs them between the turbo and the muffler. Mine is located there. There's a reason why it's not installed after the muffler, but I'm not sure what it is?
Old 12-05-2006, 04:11 PM
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River Rat
 
Dave 86 930 Fl's Avatar
 
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I posted the same question on the Innovate forum and here is the response from Klaus:

Hi Dave,

Nice car!! I know a lot of 930 owners have installed the sensor right into the muffler or right at the root of the tailpipe. The 4" between turbo and muffler are not enough. Also, because of the engine layout of the 930, there's not enough airflow over the sensor when installed between muffler and turbo and the sensor body gets heated beyond the Bosch specs of max ~550 degC.

Regards,
Klaus
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1986 930 - K27-7200, Andial Intercooler, Tial Wastegate, Electronic Boost Controller, B&B headers, Bodart Zork, Leask Adjustable WUR, Full Elephant Racing Suspension w/Adustable Spring Plates and Von Shocks, Wevo Transmission Mounts, Fuel Safe Fuel Cell, Forgelines (9"/11"), Hargett Shifter, Innovate AFR, Cobra CF Seats, DAS Rollbar, Coleman Floating Rotors, Lightweight Interior, Forgeline 17" x 9"/11", 2800 lbs.
Old 12-05-2006, 04:42 PM
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There you go, just as I thought... at the "root" of the tailpipe

I'll be doing this in the new year too, so thanks for the confirmation
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Merv
'89 911 Turbo Cab
Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
Old 12-05-2006, 05:14 PM
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The factory lambda sensor is located upstream of the turbo.
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Past rides: '74 914 1.9 liter twin plugged track car, '83 928S, '87 924S, '75 911S w '78 ROW 3.0, '72 911T, '70 911T and various other insignificant domestic examples. Happiness is a grey tailpipe! Turbo lag......it's worth the wait!
Old 12-09-2006, 03:50 AM
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Deja Vu!
Innovate's LM1 mounting instructions (read 4.1)

On TURBO CHARGED vehicles: Install the bung downstream from the turbo before the catalytic converter. The high exhaust pressure before the turbo interferes with
the lambda measurement and the high exhaust temperatures
encountered there can damage the sensor.

Zeitronix Comments
The Wideband Oxygen sensor must be positioned after the turbocharger and before the catalytic converter. Recommended installation
requires welding the O2 sensor bung in the down pipe at least 16” away from the turbo. A stock narrowband O2 sensor location is
usually too hot for the wideband O2 sensor. The oxygen sensor must be positioned vertically (wires pointing upwards between 10 and 2
o’clock) to prevent cracking of the sensor ceramic element and protect sensor against water condensation.

Jacob Electronics Comments:
"The oxygen sensor should be mounted in the downpipe, not in the collector.
The sensor should be at least 8 inches from the turbocharger. The extreme
heat and exhaust system backpressure found in the collector(s) of a
turbocharged engine can cause inaccurate air/fuel ratio readings and lead to
premature failure of the sensor."

UEGO Comments:
"On turbocharged engines the UEGO sensor must be installed after the turbo charger, if not, the pressure differential will greatly effect the accuracy of the unit. In applications with a catalytic converter, the UEGO sensor must be mounted BEFORE the converter."
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Old 12-09-2006, 04:25 PM
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Hello!

Everywhere between turbo and cat is OK. I have a "sniffer" that I attach to tailpipe only when I do tuning pulls. It doesn't have to be exactly 6 inch from turbo. Everywhere in between is OK.

Factory sensor is narrow-band sensor, so it cannot be compared.
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Thank you for your time,
Old 12-09-2006, 05:38 PM
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I have my WB sensor about 5 inches from the turbo, just before the muffler and I can tell that when I put the rear bumper back on it is going to be almost zero airflow to the area. I have a heat sink but I don't think that will be enough so I am going to route some of the left side engine air that goes to the heat system to the area. I don't have heat exchangers so it won't be a big issue. If you do have HE then a small diameter hose where the heater hose joins the HE could easily be attached to blow on the WB sensor.
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:04 PM
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Dave 86 930 Fl's Avatar
 
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I am relocating my sensor to the tailpipe as it exits the muffler. I'm told that this location will be fine except idle AFRs will be inaccurate and my comment to that is who cares. My only concern is AFR at WOT on full boost. It's all about fuel management with these turbo motors. I recorded (LC-1) a few WOT runs yesterday in order to have some data to compare to the new sensor location. It will be interesting to see what effect the upstream location of my sensor had on AFR #s. I'll post the results in the next few days.

Regards, Dave
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1986 930 - K27-7200, Andial Intercooler, Tial Wastegate, Electronic Boost Controller, B&B headers, Bodart Zork, Leask Adjustable WUR, Full Elephant Racing Suspension w/Adustable Spring Plates and Von Shocks, Wevo Transmission Mounts, Fuel Safe Fuel Cell, Forgelines (9"/11"), Hargett Shifter, Innovate AFR, Cobra CF Seats, DAS Rollbar, Coleman Floating Rotors, Lightweight Interior, Forgeline 17" x 9"/11", 2800 lbs.
Old 12-10-2006, 02:49 AM
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River Rat
 
Dave 86 930 Fl's Avatar
 
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Just a quick update, I installed a new bung just a few inches downstream of my muffler and reinstalled the AFR sensor. I put the car on a chassis dyno earlier in the week and the new location worked out great. All of my AFR numbers matched those recorded by the dyno shop, including idle AFRs.

FYI, this validates the Innovate installation guidelines ... do NOT install upstream of the turbo.

I've included a crappy picture of the dyno experience @ Irish Mike's in Orlando ... good folks.

Thanks again for all of your help.

Regards, Dave
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1986 930 - K27-7200, Andial Intercooler, Tial Wastegate, Electronic Boost Controller, B&B headers, Bodart Zork, Leask Adjustable WUR, Full Elephant Racing Suspension w/Adustable Spring Plates and Von Shocks, Wevo Transmission Mounts, Fuel Safe Fuel Cell, Forgelines (9"/11"), Hargett Shifter, Innovate AFR, Cobra CF Seats, DAS Rollbar, Coleman Floating Rotors, Lightweight Interior, Forgeline 17" x 9"/11", 2800 lbs.
Old 12-18-2006, 03:41 PM
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I have had my car out with my new LM-1 with the WB sensor just after the turbo, (4 inches), and it worked fine for about five WOT runs and then it gave me an overheat error code. I am going to move it to the pipe exiting the muf and believe it will do the trick. The pipe doesen't get nearly as hot at that point and there is a little airflow compared to the other location. By the way, my AFR was between 11.9 and 12.3 ar WOT so I am happy with that.
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Old 12-18-2006, 10:02 PM
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That's a shame that didn't work out being 4" from the turbo, that is what I was going to do when I get an LM-1.

My muffler is a dual outlet/exit. Which outlet/exit do you think I should fit the bung/boss into ?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 12-19-2006, 02:44 PM
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Nathan,
I welded my new bung into the drivers side of my dual outlet muf. I'll let you know as soon as I get some data on the new location. The new location is right between the two halves of the turbo and about 3 inches below the old bung. The big thing is that the outlet pipe will be much cooler than the turbo pipe. If you have seen the at night photo of the turbo, it is white hot but the muf and outlet pipes are not.
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:00 PM
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Thanks Rudy, I didnt realise you also had a dual outlet muffler. I will be very interested to know how accurate the sensor is there.
I doubt it will be too cold there. Isn't the sensor heated to overcome this possibility ?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 12-20-2006, 02:18 PM
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Nathan,
I have just finished putting the WB probe into the exhaust pipe and unfortunately I let the cable from the cockpit to the probe touch the hot O2 sensor and the plug melted. I won't be able to test it until I get a new cable. Here are a couple of pics.
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:44 AM
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Neat welding. Gas weld ?

Do you think you will need your copper heatsink ? I wouldn't have thought so.

Thanks for pics
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 12-21-2006, 02:06 PM
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Ideas for a safe non-meltdown AFR (temporary?) mount with this setup?



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Old 12-21-2006, 02:27 PM
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The only reason for the heat shield is that the hot side of the turbo is only about three inches away and I figures it would act more as a shield than a heat sink. Do I detect a little sarcasm about my weld? I deserve it because any time I TIG weld I like to be seated. But because of the size of the muf, I did it standing up and it is hard to work the foot control when you are standing.
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:38 PM
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Judging by other home welds I've seen on my car and on others, you did a GREAT job!

AFR ideas for the above pic'd setup?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 12-22-2006, 08:22 AM
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