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Wideband versus Narrowband AFR Gauge....I'm confused

OK, So I am searching around for a AFR gauge for my 91' Turbo. I know Blown Six has a nice one and so on...
I also know I can buy just a gauge for around $100 bucks that splices into my O2 sensor and gives a digital readout or....I can buy this "kit" that comes with a Bosch "wideband" O2 sensor and yada, yada for $300-ish

1) Do I need a wideband? Or can I just splice into my current O2 Sensor for a reading? (I am assuming it's narrowband)

2) If I do need a "wideband" gauge, will the "wideband" Bosch O2 Sensor they supply take the place of my current O2 sensor and work with my car?

3) What is the difference between wideband and narrowband!! I am so confused
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91' 964 Turbo.. Andial goodies and Nice exhaust
69' Superbee (Old School)
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:55 PM
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Macht Schnell
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda View Post
OK, So I am searching around for a AFR gauge for my 91' Turbo. I know Blown Six has a nice one and so on...
I also know I can buy just a gauge for around $100 bucks that splices into my O2 sensor and gives a digital readout or....I can buy this "kit" that comes with a Bosch "wideband" O2 sensor and yada, yada for $300-ish

1) Do I need a wideband? Or can I just splice into my current O2 Sensor for a reading? (I am assuming it's narrowband)

2) If I do need a "wideband" gauge, will the "wideband" Bosch O2 Sensor they supply take the place of my current O2 sensor and work with my car?

3) What is the difference between wideband and narrowband!! I am so confused
Hi,
Hope I can help you out a little here. I'll tell you what I "know" about it?

Narrowband is very fast to react, but only accurate at Stoichiometric mixtures around 14.7. So as soon as you get away from 14.7 or so, you can't rely on the number. Wideband is slower to show change but accurate over a wider "band" or range. So if you are trying to control injectors, you want fast response, if you are trying to tune or see what your AFR's are, you want a sensor that will give an accurate number, but may respond a little slower.

I've "heard" Bosch makes the best sensors. That's what the Innovate uses for their wideband kit, and that's what I have on my car for the EFI.

If you want a sensor to tune with, there is no arguement here, you want a wideband. Most likely the one controlling your car is narrowband.

Also, if you splice into the existing sensor, I "think" it would lower the output to the ECU and cause your car to be mis-tuned possibly. I would leave the factory unit alone and place a new "BUNG" for a wideband and mount a gauge in the cockpit.

At least this is my opinion...

Les
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 02-12-2008, 02:19 PM
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Well, I don't have EFI yet (working on that), was just looking to monitor it now...Do You know if the WBO2 sensor would work if I swapped my current one out with the new Wideband one? Or would I need to add it "in addition" to my current one? If that's the case, I'll wait...motor is coming apart in about 10 months for rebuild and EFI....Just trying to be safe in the meantime
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:28 PM
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Macht Schnell
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda View Post
Well, I don't have EFI yet (working on that), was just looking to monitor it now...Do You know if the WBO2 sensor would work if I swapped my current one out with the new Wideband one? Or would I need to add it "in addition" to my current one? If that's the case, I'll wait...motor is coming apart in about 10 months for rebuild and EFI....Just trying to be safe in the meantime
I don't know anything about 964's and what they actually do with the O2 input. Someone will surely pipe in here about whether you can just DC it. You can on a 930. Eventually you may want two sensor locations. A narrowband for your EFI and a Wideband to monitor.

Les
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 02-12-2008, 03:02 PM
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WBO2 cannot be installed instead of NBO2 sensor. It's two totally different sensors.

Narrow band is just there to controll stochiometric mixture at half-load. As soon as boost starts building up, it will go rich. Further on, narrow-band cannot measure AFR. There are lot's of fancy narrow-band gauges but it's just smoke screen. Only thing narrow band is good for is to see when you are passing lambda 1.0, nothing more. It will flip from high to low when you pass lambda 1.0 and that's it. Numbers on narrow-band AFR gauge is just there for entertainment...when it says "13:1" it could be 10:1 or 14:1, you'll never know...only thing you can know for sure is that it's richer than lambda 1.0.

So to wrap it up:

1. Narrow band cannot be exchanged with Wide band sensor without changing lot's of driver electronics.
2. Narrow band gauge is next to useless for tuning or diagnostic purposes, it only indicates when you pass lambda 1.0
3. Wide-band is much better tool and can (depending on which you buy) output simulated narrow-band signal to ECU (so you can get rid of old lambda sensor). But just connection wide-band sensor to narrow-band ECU won't work and might destroy sensor, ECU or both.
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:11 AM
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OK, Thanks very much for all the help guys. I completely understand the differences now and I'll just wait until the motor rebuild and EFI take place at years' end and make a full switch to WBO2 and proper gauge. Thanks Again...
So.....How do I check my mixtures now and where should they be? I know I have a fuel enrichment device for the adjustable boost. Thanks
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69' Superbee (Old School)
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03' Z06 Vette
Old 02-13-2008, 02:23 AM
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You cannot check mixtures in any other way but WBO2 (short of doing a dyno pull at shop that has WBO2).

There is nothing preventing you from buying WBO2 kit and installing it now, even if you are not using EFI. If you get one of kits that has simulated narrow-band output, you can even install WBO2 sensor where old sensor was and feed the simulated output to your ECU. It will let engine work as usual and provide you with accurate AFR display.

Other way is to weld extra bung on the pipe and use additional WBO2 sensor in conjunction with stock one, for diagnostic purposes.


Your mixture should be stochiometric in all cases except engine brake (where fuel flow should be shut off) or boost, (where AFR should go into 0.8-range).
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:37 AM
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Wow, Thanks again...I need to borrow you for a few weeks when I rebuild my engine. LOL...Thanks again, You've really cleared things up for me

PS: I just ordered the PLX DM 5 AFR kit off Ebay Thanks Again...it will work with my SDS EFI when I install it too...Purrrfect
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Last edited by Barracuda; 02-13-2008 at 03:31 AM.. Reason: update
Old 02-13-2008, 03:20 AM
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SM-AFR controller (which must be used in conjunction with DM 5 gauge) has simulated narrow-band output so you can remove your OEM narrow-band sensor, connect wide-band sensor to SM-AFR and then connect SM-AFR to narrow-band input on your stock lambda-computer.

With other words, you can use this setup to replace OEM sensor.

More info here:
http://www.plxdevices.com/AppNotes/PLXApp004.pdf

Also, wide-band lambda sensor isn't any slower than narrow-band one. Actually, sensor itself is fast enough to register individual combustion cycles. But in most of application, it's sampled slower than that to provide non-jittery numbers.
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Last edited by beepbeep; 02-13-2008 at 09:34 AM..
Old 02-13-2008, 09:00 AM
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Yes, After your previous post I took a look and confirmed it will compliment my current O2 needs for now along with giving me good wideband readings and I also ordered the gauge w/ the Pkg. Great thing is I can use it with my EFI upgrade too. Very Kewl
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03' Z06 Vette
Old 02-13-2008, 09:07 AM
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http://www.nwerdt.com/how-to/electrical/air_fuel_gauge_2.htm

Some info. on narrow o2 sensor and voltage.

Bob
Old 02-29-2008, 03:37 PM
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