Advanced CIS Turbo Tuning Discussion Thread. Ultimate?

[mark houghton]

Your comments:

Thus, just hook up the rpm switch and wire in line with the Andial boost switch. Now, the fueler will only trigger when both switch's are a enabled. T
I failed to mention it, but I did have the same thought of hooking the rpm switch in series with the Andial boost switch. That way when I hit high boost before the rpms have caught up, the Andial won't energize until the RPM switch allows it. Should get rid of the mid-range pig richies.
Or, just toss the Andial and let Brian's adjustable WUR in line with my rpm switch/solenoid do the same basic thing. Now in a quandry as to which way to go. Care to vote?

[911st]

Originally Posted by 911nut

How about making a metering plate with a "gurney flap" around the perimeter? In other words a lip around the circumference. This might increase the force acting on the plate.
I thought I've heard about a "cone" used on the back side of the metering plate by the factory on racing set-ups to smooth the airflow into the intake. Not sure if that would accomplish the early movement of the arm though.

Why do we want early movement? Is that for accel fuel? That could be a goal.

I was focused on complete movement for more fuel up top.

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by zcoker

The MP is basically a lever operating a plunger, correct? What if the MP were exchanged for a stepper motor controlled by duty cycle? This same principle is used by GM stepper motors for idle air control. I've seen this type of servo control on some mechanical injection systems on race cars. A sort of "EFI/CIS" but without the drastic conversion. Eliminate the MP altogether and control the plunger servo/digitally. Just some wild thoughts.

Yep yep yep...I had similar thoughts one night while trying to fall asleep. Stepper motors controlled by a mass air flow sensor tied to a computer. As you said, EFI/CIS but without the electronic injectors. Wonderful theory, but beyond my skills at the moment. Just hook up a bunch of aftermarket parts, right?

[911st]

Originally Posted by mark houghton

Your comments:

Thus, just hook up the rpm switch and wire in line with the Andial boost switch. Now, the fueler will only trigger when both switch's are a enabled. T
I failed to mention it, but I did have the same thought of hooking the rpm switch in series with the Andial boost switch. That way when I hit high boost before the rpms have caught up, the Andial won't energize until the RPM switch allows it. Should get rid of the mid-range pig richies.
Or, just toss the Andial and let Brian's adjustable WUR in line with my rpm switch/solenoid do the same basic thing. Now in a quandary as to which way to go. Care to vote?

The prime advantage to plaing with the WUR for most is to lower CP on boost to make up for the lean spot up top. This is not a new trick and Porsche dose it with the 94 3.6 turbo. There used to be a fueler called the Rice Fueler that took this approach and added one more cool feature where enrichment was added as soon as vac in the intake fell instead of when you hit .5 bar boost.

This approach works ok on stock fuel heads until you do something like the IA head. With the IA you do not need boost fuel because it is already giving you 10% plus more fuel when the boost enrichment would normally be triggered. That is what created the need for the rpm boost delay. We never intended it for anything other than that and definitely not for a motor that dose not have in increased flow fuel head. I guess you could do something like that but it is not a best practices approach.

The Andial was made for exactly for your use. Adding the RPM delay is a large improvement on there product to it keeping it from adding fuel on top of the factory enrichment to early. I would even set it to trigger at .6 or .7 bar but delay it with the RPM switch untell you need the fuel. This is a very good old school proven set up with just a little improvement. Remember Andial invented modified 930's.

Of cource, half the fun is trying new things. Enjoy.

[Ag02M5]

Signing on. I love this stuff!!!

Makes me want to go back to my engineering roots.

[911st]

I dreamed of a stepper motor controlled Metering Arm at one time. Went to the army surplus to lear about steeper motors. At that point I think an EFI conversion is on order.

I even though of a machined cartage to replace the Fuel Head that has a bank of high flow injectors with in it. The would basically feed through the stock fuel lines and injectors.

[cole930]

Keith,

1. Here is the link to the Synchronic BOV. Very nice, very fast

group5motorsports.com

2. Just talked with one of the original developers of the velocity cone
for Porsche CIS. He confirmed exactly what we were assuming.
He said it accelerated the metering plate faster from rest through
full movement of the lever and eliminated the plate stall inside
the venturi allowing full movement of the control plunger.
He said this was originally seen on an old Mercedes CIS and
they did some testing and then had one made for a 930 metering
plate and it worked so well they used them on their race motors
had them made locally and sold them through various Porsche
aftermarket suppliers.

Cole

[zcoker]

Originally Posted by mark houghton

Yep yep yep...I had similar thoughts one night while trying to fall asleep. Stepper motors controlled by a mass air flow sensor tied to a computer. As you said, EFI/CIS but without the electronic injectors. Wonderful theory, but beyond my skills at the moment. Just hook up a bunch of aftermarket parts, right?

It's basically the plunger that needs metering, and the current trend on the CIS is that the plate/plunger stalls thus not giving the required fuel for modified motors. There are plenty of servo control motors available today. The problem would be in mounting and controlling the CIS plunger either inside or atop the fuel head. If that could be done then the lever and the plate could be eliminated altogether. Like I said, I've seen this same setup on custom mechanical fuel injection systems - not on CIS systems. One such system, the servo part or the system, was controlled by air pressure. I believe Hilborn has such a metering device for sale. So it can be done in any way shape or form. Just takes some engineering.

[zcoker]

Originally Posted by cole930

Keith,

1. Here is the link to the Synchronic BOV. Very nice, very fast

group5motorsports.com

2. Just talked with one of the original developers of the velocity cone
for Porsche CIS. He confirmed exactly what we were assuming.
He said it accelerated the metering plate faster from rest through
full movement of the lever and eliminated the plate stall inside
the venturi allowing full movement of the control plunger.
He said this was originally seen on an old Mercedes CIS and
they did some testing and then had one made for a 930 metering
plate and it worked so well they used them on their race motors
had them made locally and sold them through various Porsche
aftermarket suppliers.

Cole

If they worked so well, what happened to them?? That's what I'd like to get: a simple bolt-on.

[911st]

Originally Posted by cole930

Keith,

Just talked with one of the original developers of the velocity cone
for Porsche CIS. He confirmed exactly what we were assuming.
He said it accelerated the metering plate faster from rest through
full movement of the lever and eliminated the plate stall inside
the venturi allowing full movement of the control plunger.
He said this was originally seen on an old Mercedes CIS and
they did some testing and then had one made for a 930 metering
plate and it worked so well they used them on their race motors
had them made locally and sold them through various Porsche
aftermarket suppliers.

Cole

Cole,

YES, YES, YES!

I have been wondering about this for so may years.

Once I understood what we needed I knew righ away what the intent of those buggers were.

We have to get one of these on a dyno for a back to back on the AFR's.

I think the marketing people just did not know what they were truly for. Everone wanted less lag so that is what they tryed to tell them to do. I remember reading the pitch in the Automotion add (any one have a old copy). Another example of a good idea just getting lost.

If it works like it should it will be major. Do you realize how much time money and effort people have gone to to work around the metering plat stalling?

This could men no Fueler, high flow head, or other crazy stuff... for most internaly stock 3.3's up to 1 bar running biger turbos. For thouse that trully need it, it could even make the IA head tunable at the WUR w/o boost clamps or rpm switches.

I am so excited about this I think I am going to cry!

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by 911st

The Andial was made for exactly for your use. Adding the RPM delay is a large improvement on there product to it keeping it from adding fuel on top of the factory enrichment to early. I would even set it to trigger at .6 or .7 bar but delay it with the RPM switch untell you need the fuel. This is a very good old school proven set up with just a little improvement. Remember Andial invented modified 930's

OK, I think I'm finally there. Just had to do a mind-dump to get it all sorted out. I originally went with the Andial route because of plans to run up to 1.0 bar, and I wanted to make damn sure it didn't go lean on me at the top. With the adjustable WUR I'm thinking I'll be that much safer. So rather than tie in the RPM sensor with the WUR, I'll tie it in with the Andial (and it's boost switch) to only kick in at high rpms when I'm way into boost and the risk is greater for leaning out. The nice thing about the Andial is the on-board potentiometer that allows fine-tuning. I may find that I won't need much additonal fuel at the upper end of things, but that's yet to be seen. At least I can adjust it, or shut if off.

Oh, and along those lines...one more thought on Andial. The control potentiometer controls the duty cycle of the Lambda valve by selecting one of 5 different positons, each with it's own set of exposed resistors feeding back to the "computer" to govern the duty cycle. I would bet that a person can monkey with those resistor values and modify the duty cycle (i.e., increase the cycle beyond stock maximum). Real simple, just have to put the ohm meter on things and go from there.

[Thierry25]

Hello !!!

Keith, this is a great idea to create a new trhread for this topic! I will take picture for you soon of the ANDIAL kit . I'll sent to you ASAP

Marc, as Keith mentionned ( actually he was very kind to me and suggested this setup to me a while ago) , also I just bought a complete Andial kit (I will use the plumbing only) which I will combine with a split second AIC controller. So we will be able to share our experience if you go in this way.

By the way, the AIC controller has 2 chanels. The second chanel can be use as something like an RPM/MAP switch . Via the solenoid valve (which can be drive directly by the controler), it is possible to drive the "boost line". Thus it is possibel to disable the boost line from 2000 to 5500 RPM ...then enable this line to decrease CP if required ....

[Thierry25]

dear Mark

The andial controller is very limited in it action since it can not get the MAP information. It would be relatively easy to modify some resistance inside to change the duty cycle . But it is much more convenient to do it by programming the AIC controller ...would be much easier and much accurate.

the Andial controler doesn't controle the original lambda freq valve. The andial controle his own added freq valve.

[911st]

Originally Posted by Thierry25

Hello !!!

Keith, this is a great idea to create a new trhread for this topic! I will take picture for you soon of the ANDIAL kit . I'll sent to you ASAP

Marc, as Keith mentionned ( actually he was very kind to me and suggested this setup to me a while ago) , also I just bought a complete Andial kit (I will use the plumbing only) which I will combine with a split second AIC controller. So we will be able to share our experience if you go in this way.

By the way, the AIC controller has 2 chanels. The second chanel can be use as something like an RPM/MAP switch . Via the solenoid valve (which can be drive directly by the controler), it is possible to drive the "boost line". Thus it is possibel to disable the boost line from 2000 to 5500 RPM ...then enable this line to decrease CP if required ....

You will not need the to put a valve on the boost line. I just disconected mine totally and used the AIC / frequency valve to lower CP on boost.

[cole930]

Zcoker,

I just called Synapse Engineering eariler this week and ask about their new
DV001 Model as it was kicked off at the 2009 SEMA show and was considerably
smaller than the SB001. The new model won't be available until later this year
so I ordered a SB001. They even have them on Ebay. Not hard to find.
Great product.

Sorry Z I thought you were talking about the BOV My Bad !!!!!

This thing is probably early 80's vintage and I don't think most people had the understanding of
of what it really did. The one I have is the only one I ever saw. I got it from Chris Fisher years ago.
I never thought about it either untill Kevin brought it up last nite


Cole

[911st]

Originally Posted by cole930

Zcoker,

I just called Synapse Engineering earlier this week and ask about their new
DV001 Model as it was kicked off at the 2009 SEMA show and was considerably
smaller than the SB001. The new model won't be available until later this year
so I ordered a SB001. They even have them on Ebay. Not hard to find.
Great product.


Cole

Just googled SE BOV. I watched a Utube video of it on a turbo Honda S2000.

He did not explain it very well. However, that is basically what I did with a piston style adjustable aftermarket compressor bypass valve. If his is larger in diameter, It would be worth looking at in place of what I did except this would complicated plumbing.

This much be plumed on between the turbo compressor wheel and throttle plate and discharge between the metering assembly and the turbo inlet just like the factory Bosch anti stall valve dose.

Big picture. Using this with a drop and catch strategy to get the metering plate moving quickly transformed my throttle response off idle and from cruse.

[cole930]

Keith,

Now that we've investigated this thing I may have saved $600.00 for
an IA fuel head mod and it didn't cost me a dime. I have never thought
much of the fuel mod anyway unless your running big HP.
When I get it back I'll look at getting some made. We have several
good aluminum spinners here. Also like I said if you need it to do some
testing let me know. Gives you another reason to buy that Turbo.

I was looking a plumbing it off the 964 elbo at the CIS and direct discharge
back to the intake. On my set up that's a peice of cake.

Cole

[zcoker]

Originally Posted by cole930

Zcoker,

I just called Synapse Engineering eariler this week and ask about their new
DV001 Model as it was kicked off at the 2009 SEMA show and was considerably
smaller than the SB001. The new model won't be available until later this year
so I ordered a SB001. They even have them on Ebay. Not hard to find.
Great product.


Cole

I was talking about that custom metering plate that allowed the CIS plunger full travel, not a BOV. It might be easy to machine one on a lathe.

[911st]

Originally Posted by cole930

Keith,

Now that we've investigated this thing I may have saved $600.00 for
an IA fuel head mod and it didn't cost me a dime. I have never thought
much of the fuel mod anyway unless your running big HP.
When I get it back I'll look at getting some made. We have several
good aluminum spinners here. Also like I said if you need it to do some
testing let me know. Gives you another reason to buy that Turbo.

I was looking a plumbing it off the 964 elbo at the CIS and direct discharge
back to the intake. On my set up that's a piece of cake.

Cole

Please tell me you are going to do a back to back on a dyno the verify it actually works?

If not, lets get some one to do that and validated it.

[911st]

I think I used an early "adjustable" version of this Compressor Bypass Valve that I reconfigured to improve my throttle response. This I know works.

I think what is needed is an ability to adjust the spring tension. Forge looks to have some nice units with different springs to tune them.

The key is a higher ratio of piston size from top to bottom and the ability to get change the spring tension.

http://www.stratmosphere.com/hyperboost.htm