Latest Project - Headers

[911st]

Impressive difference!


What I think I see:

Full boost about 150rpm sooner than euro headers.

Full boost (.75 bar?) at about 3500rpm. Boost onset at 2600rpm.

Apx 5psi boost at 3100rpm (where boost enrichment is triggered).

HP peak moved from 5500 to 5800rpm.

Looks like the WG first dumps at about 3500rpm and then again at 4200rpm for some reason.


Questions:

Were the cams re-timed between the two tests for any reason?

Was the ignition touched or re-timed for any reason between tests?

Your sig line notes 315hp at .7 bar. Why dose the comparative HP curve show 297hp and not 315hp?

[Yargk]

Do you plan to dyno some B and B headers with the rest of your setup?

[mb911]

Originally Posted by Yargk

Do you plan to dyno some B and B headers with the rest of your setup?

I would doubt he would. There is so much info with similar setups useing B&B almost a waste of time don't you think? After all the data point was really the stock j pipe versus headers.

[Garrison]

Brian, great results! Guess I need to start saving up for some headers with heat...

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

..................edited for space...........
I don't know how much power that would add but I'm still very happy.
My engine uses a K27-7200 turbocharger and SC cams. Heads are stock, boost is stock 0.75bar and intercooler is oversized 1/2 bay. No A/C. All runs are done in 4th gear using a 915 tranny.
.............................................

Originally Posted by 911st

Impressive difference!


........................edited for space..................
Getting a 5% increase in TQ or VE from just a header change on a N/A motor with smog cams at any rpm is quite an achievement. 10% on a turbo with smog cams seems a bit overly impressive.

..............................................edit ed for space, again

Still, something good seems to be happening here! Just not sure 'yet' exactly how much.

Hardly consider SC cams "smog" cams.
"a bit overly impressive"? I don't think Brian is claiming anything extraordinary here. In fact, I think they are quite down to earth.......about 10HP more than the B&B Header system.

[911st]

The top end is huge, huge, huge! I would buy it for that alone. +60hp/+20%HP at 6000rpm!

Boost came in about 150rpm sooner but looks like it would take 3600rpm to hit .8 bar.

A well set up K27-7200 w headers should be near .8 bar by about 3000rpm.

The poor AFR's up to 3500rpm might be part of this.

[911st]

Originally Posted by Yargk

Do you plan to dyno some B and B headers with the rest of your setup?

Originally Posted by mb911

I would doubt he would. There is so much info with similar setups using B&B almost a waste of time don't you think? After all the data point was really the stock j pipe versus headers.

I love you guys but this is exactly what we need!

Just these two in a shoot out on the same motor preferably on the same day preferably with accurate monitoring of boost.

The market is no longer B&B v euro. With the above dyno chart it is Brian's fully equal length headers v B&B shorties!

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by 911st

I love you guys but this is exactly what we need!

Just these two in a shoot out on the same motor preferably on the same day preferably with accurate monitoring of boost.

The market is no longer B&B v euro. With the above dyno chart it is Brian's fully equal length headers v B&B shorties!

Why? Brian's results speak for themselves. The fact they're designed and built by Brian's group, there's NO HP loss compared to the B&B's, in fact there's more HP, and the quality is head and shoulders above the B&B's. The only other factor is the sound and from what Brian said, the sound is something else!

I've owned B&B's for the past 4 years and I can verify the fit on these pipes left me very disappointed. Then there's the copper header gaskets that looked like they were cut out by a 5 year old using a gas torch. The T-3 turbo flange hardly looked any better than the OBX's out there.

[David]

Brian, I need to give my wife your email address so she can order my Christmas present early

[totle]

These results looks great Brian.
Looking forward to see the headers with heat

[RarlyL8]

No cam timing or ignition timing changes were made pre/post testing. The car got a tune up and a couple fuel injectors replaced due to dribbling after shutdown. I changes the fuel filter as well and added adjustable rear shocks.

Something I forgot to mention that is important. For some reason the dyno equipment read ~250RPM higher than my tach. The operator tried to adjust it out but could not. The baseline and other runs were spot-on. I don't know if I can assume that the graph is shifted 250PRM to the right. He was instructed to shut the run down at 6000RPM as no more power was expected after that point. It looks like he either shut it down a touch late or the graph is off.

My signature does say 315HP, it should say 315 torque. I'll change that. The dyno run I did with my muffler vs the stock Euro muffler raised the torque from 299 to 315 and added ~12HP.

I would love to do a B&B comparison but you are talking a lot of work, money and time. I have not seen any data of B&B vs Euro but that should tell you where we are. I've sold a couple of sets of headers to folks currently using short tube headers, that might be even better as I would not be involved.

Heat is coming. I recieved the tooling estimate and about had a coronary.

[wjfk32]

CONGRATS! CONGRATS! CONGRATS!

Man, I can't imagine having that set-up. I have the j-euro setup 3.3turbo/modified in my SC-Targa with a 915. Today in Metro-N.Y.,temp. was in the 40's and my wheels were already spinning in 2d gear with a stock intercooler..../

Need-heat with the those headers!!!!! Can't wait!!!!

Congrats again!!!

Walt

[mb911]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

No cam timing or ignition timing changes were made pre/post testing. The car got a tune up and a couple fuel injectors replaced due to dribbling after shutdown. I changes the fuel filter as well and added adjustable rear shocks.

Something I forgot to mention that is important. For some reason the dyno equipment read ~250RPM higher than my tach. The operator tried to adjust it out but could not. The baseline and other runs were spot-on. I don't know if I can assume that the graph is shifted 250PRM to the right. He was instructed to shut the run down at 6000RPM as no more power was expected after that point. It looks like he either shut it down a touch late or the graph is off.

My signature does say 315HP, it should say 315 torque. I'll change that. The dyno run I did with my muffler vs the stock Euro muffler raised the torque from 299 to 315 and added ~12HP.

I would love to do a B&B comparison but you are talking a lot of work, money and time. I have not seen any data of B&B vs Euro but that should tell you where we are. I've sold a couple of sets of headers to folks currently using short tube headers, that might be even better as I would not be involved.

Heat is coming. I recieved the tooling estimate and about had a coronary.

Brian we need to talk about the heat exchangers ASAP.

[mb911]

Originally Posted by WERK I

Why? Brian's results speak for themselves. The fact they're designed and built by Brian's group, there's NO HP loss compared to the B&B's, in fact there's more HP, and the quality is head and shoulders above the B&B's. The only other factor is the sound and from what Brian said, the sound is something else!

I've owned B&B's for the past 4 years and I can verify the fit on these pipes left me very disappointed. Then there's the copper header gaskets that looked like they were cut out by a 5 year old using a gas torch. The T-3 turbo flange hardly looked any better than the OBX's out there.

Dave if you want to see these headers in person let me know I am completing a bunch this week and working on a Twin setup for a customer so it seems I am falling all over these at the moment

[RarlyL8]

Sound. The sound is just incredible on boost. I screwed up and left my video camera at home but would not have been able to shoot it myself anyway as I was watching the AFRs and boost gage.
The engine is actually near-stock quiet at idle and raises quickly when gas is given. The headers are more quiet than the J-pipe, I did not expect that. It transitions from mild to monster when boost hits! I really really love that Jeckle/Hyde as it is so nice to loaf it around town with the sound not wearing on you. Toggle a gear down and drive auto-x style and it's an animal!

Ben - give me a call at your convenience tomorrow. I'll be in the shop or doing taxes all day.

[jonesb930]

I am glad to see your efforts have paid off.

[911nut]

Originally Posted by JFairman

Thats really good because the general consensus is B&B headers only give around 5 to maybe 8 horsepower more than the stock euro exhaust and 1986 -'89 USA exhaust on a CIS motor, while weighing less.

How is that possible?
Any header shorty of equal length, is going to offer substantially less resistance to flow than the stock system.
I don't own a set of B&B's but someone needs to post data before I swallow that statement.

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by 911nut

How is that possible?
Any header shorty of equal length, is going to offer substantially less resistance to flow than the stock system.
I don't own a set of B&B's but someone needs to post data before I swallow that statement.

I seem to recall B&B made their claims off an '87 930. I'll see if I can find the literature that claim with the headers. The graph below is off their web site and is the current claim, but no test mule info is there. The important thing that I took away after that cussed-installation, is the response was so much better with the B&B's compared to the factory headers with J-pipe. By "response" I mean the turbo spooling curve had been lowered by about 400RPM.

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by mb911

Dave if you want to see these headers in person let me know I am completing a bunch this week and working on a Twin setup for a customer so it seems I am falling all over these at the moment

Hi Ben,
Thanks for the warm invite. If I can get away later this week, I'll definitely drive down to see the headers. I'll drop you a note (PM) a day before, just to make sure you're not too busy.

[RarlyL8]

Most of the folks I've spoken with over the years told me they got a 20HP bump and better response with shorty headers alone. It is hard to find situations where only the headers were added as many do the entire package at once. There is no doubt you have to have a free flowing muffler to allow the headers to achieve max performance.
If you look closely at the black graph above you can see there is only one spot that has a 44HP gap. That spot is at 3500rpm and is partially caused by lag reduction moving the curve to the left. The claim of 44HP needs to be qualified for clarification. Using the same logic a K27S will add 100HP over a 3LDZ.