MSD Retard...anyone using it???

[John at J&S]

I'd rather see them mounted on something rigid. The shroud is relatively flimsy and may vibrate and buzz.

[patkeefe]

John:
They are solidly on the cam housing. The two washers elevate the sensors above the shroud, which I cut away with a die grinder to accommodate the sensors.
Physical limitations prevent them going anywhere else easily. At this stage, I am not taking the engine apart.

[911st]

The cam chain and valve train noise sources are all as close or closer than the combustion chambers in this case if that matters.

[e170drvr]

For the guys using the MSD ignition. Does the msd magnetic trigger wire plug directly into the dizzy green wire , or do you have to splice this connection. Thanks.
Eric

[patkeefe]

That's true, and I'm painfully aware of that. I hate to do things half a$$ed, but I really didn't have much choice here, as I didn't consider the knock sensors until it was too late in the game. I need to do a bit more research on this (get the old physics texts out of the closet), but, all things considered, it is kind of a test. That's why I picked up a used MSD retard unit.

So, what is the frequency of valve train noise or chain noise? My theory is that the frequency generated by any detonation will be a unique frequency unmatched by any other frequency emitted by any other engine component. So, this frequency will travel through the head to the cam towers to the sensors. Now, how much the oscillations will be dampened on the way to the sensors is the million dollar question. I suppose I will find out when I start banging on the engine with a ball peen hammer.

As a quick analogy, whales could communicate with other whales over many hundreds or thousands of miles, as their voices carried pretty well. Until the 20th century, when engine driven ships started polluting the open ocean with noise, and the whales "signals" could no longer carry so far.

[JFairman]

Originally Posted by e170drvr

For the guys using the MSD ignition. Does the msd magnetic trigger wire plug directly into the dizzy green wire , or do you have to splice this connection. Thanks.
Eric

You can either splice the green and purple MSD wires into the green coax dizzy wire or crimp and solder male spade terminals on the green and purple wires and plug them into the 6 pin plug that used to go into the bottom of the factory CDI box.
You have to have the polarity of those 2 wires correct or the ignition timing becomes around 20 degrees advanced.

Splicing directly to the distributor's coaxial green wire would be the best connection but I decided to use spade terminals into the origonal female 6 pin plug so I could easily plug and play the origonal CDI box back into the car if the MSD failed or if putting the car back to the way it was.

Here's a pic of my MSD retard box installed where the OEM CDI box was.
I have the MSD 6AL mounted on the right side of the firewall behind the air cleaner housing.

In this picture the 6 pin plug has 2 raised notches on one side that I wrapped with electrician's tape.
They are facing upwards in this pic so you can get an idea of the positions of the green and purple MSD trigger wires.
The red wire is the wire that turns on both MSD boxes, and the black wire under it is the tach signal wire from the single spade terminal on the 6AL box.

The other 2 unused female spade terminals are the origonal ignition coil connections to the factory CDI.
I chose to run the wires directly from the MSD 6AL to the MSD high vibration blaster coil I mounted in the stock position on the fan housing for less possibility of an intermittant connection to the coil.

The big Adel clamp in the lower right is holding my innovate LC-1 in place on the driver side longitudinal.

....hope that helps.

[patkeefe]

JF
Can you get at the 6AL box in case you need to service it? I need to find some spots for the 6AL, the retard box and the J&S box. I'm thinking of building a control cabinet and mounting it on the rear kick panel. Nice clean install you have there, BTW.

[JFairman]

Yes, I just have to remove the intercooler and then the origonal air cleaner housing and it's right there.

Here's a pic I snapped while installing it and before completely wired in.

I had to remove the 3 injector lines on the right side to get a drill in there to make the left side mounting holes for it in the firewall bulkhead. I don't have a small right angle drill or attachment to do that.
I'd already replaced the foam rubber sound pad so I was very careful to cut a section out for the 6AL with a razor knife and not mangle the foam.


and yeah.. I have a big long roll of high quality gas and oil resistant houshold 12 gauge wire so sometimes I use some of it in the car for high power runs.
Thats the white wire that is in mid air not hooked up yet. It's the MSD's 12 volt power supply line coming from the large starter motor terminal.

The aluminum foil is there to protect things and keep dirt out while lying my arms in there working on it.
Thats a Flowtech/IA modified fuel head.

[copbait73]

Look at this shot and you will see there is room left and right for electrical panels. I made mine from AL sheet with standoff spacers as needed for the wheel arches.

[JFairman]

Thing is the 930 CIS fuel accumulator and fuel filter is where your stuff is on the left side and the oil seperator tank and it's hoses are over on the right side where you have the water alcohol injection stuff.

Of course you can always move all that stuff especially if going EFI...

[patkeefe]

Those 930's have a ton of room in there. I can't even get to the back of my fuel head without a fight. Previous iteration (Rev 1.0) of the turbo SC...

[copbait73]

Originally Posted by JFairman

Thing is the 930 CIS fuel accumulator and fuel filter is where your stuff is on the left side and the oil seperator tank and it's hoses are over on the right side where you have the water alcohol injection stuff.

Of course you can always move all that stuff especially if going EFI...

No, you are missing these items due to perspective. This engine compartment has the same Porsche CDI box, accumulator and filter on the left as yours (its CIS also) and the right panel (with water injection tank and pump) is located behind the normal oil tank/filter consul.

These panels are located over the wheel arches, just forward of the rear bulkhead.

This shot shows the install:

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by patkeefe

JF
Can you get at the 6AL box in case you need to service it? I need to find some spots for the 6AL, the retard box and the J&S box. I'm thinking of building a control cabinet and mounting it on the rear kick panel. Nice clean install you have there, BTW.

Or you can stuff it all on the left side of the engine bay as I did (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/500986-ultimate-930-distributor-advance-retard-timing-turbo-lag-msd-mod-thread-post4976095.html#post4976095), though probably not the best location (firewall installation probably the best area). I had to stick it at least temporarily somewhere and will probably eventually install on the firewall.

[patkeefe]

Update:
I had a lack of progress since last posting due to old age and hernia surgery. However, my VW gearhead daughter from Arizona will be here this weekend to help her feeble old dad put the stuff back together. I can't fit the MSD 6AL, the Brian Leask RPM Boost Controller and the MSD Retard box on the left side firewall. I am going to fab an aluminum box for the J&S unit, and mount it on the rear kick panel inside the car, and find a spot for the MSD Boost controller on the firewall. I am keeping the stock SC distributor.

[patkeefe]

Bump:
I am trying to get the SC started. I have 1.0V at terminal 15 with the ignition on. I have all warning lights. The starter will crank. Terminal 15 is checked at the spade connection near the ignition module, and the MSD BTM under the passenger seat.

Approximate wiring diagram is attached. The car has been apart for two+ years, and I have the flu (which may or may not account for my lack of mental acuity). I have 12.5V at the MSD 6AL box. I may have 7/31d reversed on the green wire connector, but rumor is that will cause an abnormal advance which should be noticeable.

I also have a BL Solenoid Switch, which is not on the schematic. I am open to suggestion.

[patkeefe]

I finally got some wiring done last night, and got power to the MSD boxes. Tonight I try to start it up. I hope it doesn't explode!

[patkeefe]

Runs. Drain issues at the turbo. Leaks at the clutch end seal, it looks like. *^&*$%^&@%$~(^!!!

[patkeefe]

I got the SC running and sorted, mostly. AFR seeems good. When the boost comes on, it's like getting hit in the rear by a runaway beer truck.

I have the MSD 8762 Boost Retard hooked up. How do I test it to see if it works? Is there any way to do this? MSD instructions are not the greatest.

If I can get this working and tested, then I will be comfortable to get the J&S Safeguard unit installed. I want a baseline for comparison, as I didn't really optimize the mount for the knock sensors.

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by patkeefe

I got the SC running and sorted, mostly. AFR seeems good. When the boost comes on, it's like getting hit in the rear by a runaway beer truck.

I have the MSD 8762 Boost Retard hooked up. How do I test it to see if it works? Is there any way to do this? MSD instructions are not the greatest..

Hook up a compressed air line to the port on the boost retard unit and put controlled pressure to it. Start the engine, get out your timing light, point it to the timing marks on the pulley, then put compressed air to the BTM. You should see the timing retard.
Let's assume you've set your static timing at some extreme level of say 12 additional degrees advance at idle (works for me anyway), and your BTM to shave that timing off progressively in response to boost level. If you were to put full boost...say .8 bar...to the BTM, it should shave off all of the extra timing you've got dialed in at idle, and your timing marks would line up to something more "stock". This simple test won't tell you the rate at which the BTM is retarding timing, but at least it will tell you that at full boost you're back to spec timing....or wherever you want it to be.

Most interested to see if your knock sensor can sense knocks. How many knocks could a knock sensor sense if a knock sensor could sense knocks.
Glad you got her up and running!

[patkeefe]

Wonderful suggestion Mark. I can use my Mity-Vac pressure side with the gauge on it and see the incremental boost retard rate. I will need to solicit one of my offspring helpers for this.
Thanks!
Pat