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MFI in a 930

Anyone tried mating up an early manual fuel injection delivery system to a 930 motor? Isn't that what the base format was for the 935 racers? My old '73 Targa of course had MFI. Other than linkage adjustment headaches, once set up it was really quite dependable. I don't recall, but I think the fuel distributor was driven off the right hand cam?
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 12-18-2009, 01:50 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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All 930's have MFI, they call it CIS, ha!

I've never seen an early MFI system used on a turbocharged 911 outside of a racecar.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
All 930's have MFI, they call it CIS, ha!

I've never seen an early MFI system used on a turbocharged 911 outside of a racecar.
I haven't either...and the term "racecar" excites my imagination. Why not???
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:14 PM
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If you check in on the prices of Bosch or Kugelfisher mechanical injection pumps for a turbocharged car like those used on a 935 you'll think twice... They are NLA and the ones that do exist are collector items and no one else makes one.

You could probably buy several nice 930's for the average price of a good one at this time. Maybe more.
Old 12-18-2009, 02:15 PM
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Yeah, I saw that $20,000 unit on eBay. I was thinking something more like $1500 for a stock 911E unit and modifying the piss out of someone else's 930 motor to accomodate forced induction through velocity stacks, direct injection, etc. Just a few coins later and we would have a race car!
OK, never mind this post. I would delete it, but too late now!!!
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:37 PM
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It's a 914 ...
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
If you check in on the prices of Bosch or Kugelfisher mechanical injection pumps for a turbocharged car like those used on a 935 you'll think twice... They are NLA and the ones that do exist are collector items and no one else makes one.

You could probably buy several nice 930's for the average price of a good one at this time. Maybe more.

The issue might not be so much getting a Kugelfischer pump -- even that that might be hard to tune for any reasonable dual use or street use. You might be able to adapt a Bosch pump just as well, but good luck calibrating it! I have heard that this was notoriously hard to do on turbos, especially dealing with on/off boost and part throttle. Maybe others can speak to it more. If I had to guess, I'd say maybe for track-only use you might be able to make it work, but it could make for a monster for street use.

Scott
Old 12-18-2009, 02:48 PM
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Manual injection pumps for normally aspirated cars are not calibrated for the fuel curve needed for a turbo engine and the small ones from 2 liter Porsche engines couldn't be modified to work.

You could call or email Gunnar Porsche and get an average price for a used or rebuilt one from a 935.

The biggest mechanical injection gasoline motor I can think of was the Mercedes 6.3 liter V8 used in the 280SEL 6.3
Old 12-18-2009, 02:49 PM
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MFI with Turbo was applied on the street with the '72 BMW 2002. These were not US and I'm not a BMW guy but there is an example to investigate changes to the pump. I suspect it's done though the barometer and is not really that significant a change. Interesting possiblity for an early model 2.2 or 2.4L based low boost turbo project.

Also, I aways thought the reverse script TURBO on the front bumper was an nice in your face feature. http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/2098/BMW-2002-Turbo.html

Imagine someone seeing this in their mirror as you fly up on their bumper? I'm thinking of producing various TURBO related body scripts. What do you guys think of this one? What about the classic (not PC) KKK turbolader?

Last edited by copbait73; 12-23-2009 at 12:46 PM..
Old 12-18-2009, 07:41 PM
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I have wondered about pulling the CIS metering system and mounting an MFI pump in close to the same location as it is on a 2.4S but on top of the 930 pancake manifold.

There used to be a pump builder on the east coast that told me he would put a boost enrichment can on a pump for such a build.

One would have to come up with a linkage to tie the throttle body to the mfi pump.

We could keep almost all the plumbing from the turbo to the throttle and only have to put an air filter on the tubing down to the turbo.

Could be fun but it is probably more of a romantic project as EFI is still going to be better even if the stock intake manifold is used.
Old 12-20-2009, 09:51 PM
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I PMd a Pelican with the MFI skills. He wrote back with the desire to do one. For me, the motor will be low boost, 2.2-2.4L street motor for narrow body use. Not the typical fire-breathing 930 but Turbo/MFI 911 nonetheless.
Old 12-21-2009, 10:27 AM
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If one could design a flat TQ band under boost through careful design of cam turbo and maybe programmable boost by rpm it would make dialing in the MFI easer.

MFI is mostly correlated to TQ. If the air flow is stable with each stroke then the fuel need per stroke is stable and adapting the Space cam is easer. One might even be able to set up the pump so it dose not use a boost enrichment pot of one is ok w a simpler fuel curve that matches throttle angle more than load.

Another think to look at is intercooer efficiency and gross boost level. If one can keep the charge are temp down where the AFR can be set near 12/1 and allow the car to run safely, the car will still run off boost ok at those levels. If we need to go in the low 11's keep things cool it would be more difficult. It should not be hard to get proper AFR's at low throttle angle & curse rpm.

I think a 2.4T pump could be set up to work well by modifying the space cam at WOT at rpm. I have marked the space cam with a felt tip pen, driven at the rpm I wanted more fuel at and used a hand grinder and flat file to increase the fuel in that area using trial and error. One could use set of caliper and if you want 10% more fuel, cut the space cam 10% in that area.

Not sure what the gross fuel delivery limit if a 2.2/2.4 MFI pump is. It might require larger pistons at some point if going much over 300hp. I believe some have put them on race 3.6's so it might not be an issue.
Old 12-22-2009, 07:28 AM
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New thought for boost enrichment.

It might be possible to use a Boost-Retard pot from a distributor to add enrichmentt to the MFI pump. If you look at pictures of the 935 pumps you can see a can on top which is what was used for boost enrichmentt and I suspect to adapt fueling to different boost levels that came with adjustable boost.

When I did my 2.8 MFI motor I removed the thermostat on the MFI pump and replaced it with a plate & external adjustment screw. One might use that circuit with a bell crank to create leverage & reduce travel, and use the dist pot for enrichment.

No idea how much enrichment that can be effected at those points.

The other place might be to take off the barometric / altitude can and put it there but I would make that a second choice.

I suspect that if one is wants to use adjustable boost, an enrichment can will be a must. If the boost is fixed, fueling could be done at the space cam level or with an all or nothing strategy using the dist boost ret pot.

Could be a fun project.
Old 12-22-2009, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st
The other place might be to take off the barometric / altitude can and put it there but I would make that a second choice.
Why not just put the barometric cell in a chamber pressurized by the turbo? Air pressure is air pressure, atmospheric or boosted.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:40 PM
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I would suspect it dose not have large enough range to take one from atmosphere to say 1.2 bar of boost but I am just guessing.

Going MFI is going to take some work to get right and then will probably not have the manners of an EFI motor. Would be fun to do, fun on the track, and should make more HP.

I loved my 2.8 twin plug and 2.4S MFI cars. However, they did not always have the best manners.
Old 12-22-2009, 03:19 PM
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...there's one out there

Howdy Chaps,

Interesting possiblity for an early model 2.2 or 2.4L based low boost turbo project.

There's a variation (EFI not MFI) on the theme out there entertaining its owner owner to no end on a daily basis right now, click here, I'm still sorta working on the site.

The baseline for an MFI version in this configuration? 315rwhp at .7 bar, CO in the 1% range, tranquil AMC Hornet/Pacer like idle at 750-800rpm.
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Old 12-23-2009, 07:23 AM
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Nice motor. What was the Garrett turbo configuration settled on? 8.5:1 C.R. @.7 bar is 12.5:1 effective, any problems when things heat up?

Last edited by copbait73; 12-23-2009 at 06:37 PM..
Old 12-23-2009, 12:43 PM
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Stole this from another thread.

Note the pot on top of the pump for enrichment on boost.

Old 01-11-2010, 04:40 PM
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You need an LDA

You need a Ladedruckabhangeigervolllastenschlag (LDA for short)

Translates roughly to "manifold boost pressure compensator", and acts on the MFI compensation lever instead of the barometric cell.

You'll find them in your 935 and 917-30 parts bins (or on other Bosch inline turbo diesel pumps)

I believe 65cc/500 strokes at 1 bar WOT will get you into 935 territory (but you might need 7mm or 7.5mm plungers (ala Aston V8) to get there, but I've not been able to confirm spec from a real 935 pump....)

Diesel LDA parts


935 pump (or replica....using 912/917 cover plate)


And this pump looks to me to be a 935 pump modifed for NA use (removed LDA and no baro cell or temperature compensation), but shows the position of the LDA's actuation pin above the compensation lever inside the regulator housing.



Or something like this (in concept) spotted at a well known pump rebuilders...



John

Last edited by jcge; 01-12-2010 at 05:01 PM.. Reason: plunger size
Old 01-12-2010, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcge View Post
You need a Ladedruckabhangeigervolllastenschlag (LDA for short)
John, I have enough trouble with the English language...but thanks for the translation! Now, if someone would just adapt this to a 930 with individual throttle bodies and we might just have something.
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Old 01-12-2010, 04:53 PM
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Me too Mark - longest useful (??) word I've encounterd yet , and I've been just dying to throw it into a conversation.
John
Old 01-12-2010, 05:03 PM
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