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EFI, Why AFR different Left to Right?

I am in the shakedown stage of my EFI conversion and have much higher AFRs coming from my right bank opposed to my left bank...

Do I have something wrong? Bad injectors, timing, fuel pressure, spark?

Engine starts instantly, idles perfectly, revs smooth and builds boost. I have verified timing with timing light, fuel pressure is steady, no vacuum leaks...

Parameters: 3.4, ported heads, Carrera intake, 964 cams, 75mm TB, twin 044 fuel pumps, -10 fuel lines/rails, 30 PSI fuel pressure, twin plug, dual EDIS, MSII, 72lb injectors, k14/24 zero clearance turbos...

Old 09-12-2010, 05:30 PM
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Is it possible there may be a leak in the tail pipe drawing in extra O2? I just finished a similar build using MSII with extra code. twin Turbonetics t3 t4s.
Old 09-12-2010, 07:05 PM
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Are you certain your wastegates are synchronized? Maybe you got one turbo working over the other. Are you taking the wastegates boost reference from the same location? I would guess your fuel rails are identical and run out of a single fuel pressure regulator with similar feed to the rails? Otherwise this could be another problem. Have you swapped the sensors? Maybe they are not calibrated equally. Could be so many things....Hope you get to the end of this soon.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:49 PM
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Turbo Nut

Nice build. What coil over plugs are you using?

Thanks
Old 09-12-2010, 08:09 PM
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The latest VW 1.8T coils and 964 covers with the 6mm bolt holes drilled to 8mm coils fit like glove top and bottom. The coils are like $12.00 each with the good buddy deal from the dealer.
Old 09-12-2010, 08:38 PM
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Are your WBO2 calibrated? Are they grounded at the same place? How different are the readings? Are you logging the two WBO2 readings in Megatune or TS?
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:31 AM
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I had a similar problem with mine. I only have one Lambda sensor so I didn't see it there, but I did see differences in my left and right spark plugs. Turns out I was a little off on my cam timing left to right.
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo nut View Post
The latest VW 1.8T coils and 964 covers with the 6mm bolt holes drilled to 8mm coils fit like glove top and bottom. The coils are like $12.00 each with the good buddy deal from the dealer.
Thanks.
Old 09-13-2010, 06:56 AM
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Where are the O2 sensors located (pre or post turbo, near tailpipe), what O2 controllers are you using, and are they both calibrated the same?
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo nut View Post
Is it possible there may be a leak in the tail pipe drawing in extra O2? I just finished a similar build using MSII with extra code. twin Turbonetics t3 t4s.
Not to hijack the thread but very nice. How are you retaining the lower coils and how are you splitting the +5V logic signal to the coils?
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:50 AM
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Also, have you verified that each of your injectors are flowing the same? Have you checked for contact resistance at the injectors?

How did you wire your injector banks? Did you do a L bank and a R bank or did you put 1-6-2 and 4-3-5 together to match the crank rotation?
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:55 AM
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I just wonder, are your fuel rails in series? If so might check pressure at the end of each rail at WOT for balance if possible.

Are you using one fuel pressure reg or one at the end of each rail? If two, might want to test that they are balanced on boost.

Looks like a single TB so probably not a wast gate balance thing unless off enough to increase back pressure / reversion on that side.

Good luck, crazy wild build.

Last edited by 911st; 09-13-2010 at 09:02 AM..
Old 09-13-2010, 09:00 AM
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So we dont hijack the thread PM me and I will give you the rundown.
Old 09-13-2010, 12:32 PM
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Hi David,

First, what an absolutely great build! I've got some questions but I'll send them outside of this thread. Regarding the differences in O2 between the banks, here are my guesses:

1. O2 sensor or controller? If you are using two then perhaps you could swap to see if it is a sensor calibration issue.

2. Stuck fuel injector? Check your plugs to see if a cylinder looks lean or pull the lean bank and flow test them.

3. Difference in airflow in the intakes? I've heard that flow matching is a good idea if you're going to go for big hp. Problem if you're tuning a cylinder lean.

Again, looks terrific.
Mike
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:17 PM
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First of all, I want to thank each of you for your input! Chasing these issues can be frustrating, but it helps knowing that such a wealth of expertise exists here at PP. With the amount of modifications done to the car/engine, I went into this expecting to chase issues ranging from fuel/oil leaks to wiring to sensor calibrations to vacuum leaks, etc. I was however amazed that when I turned the key for the first time to check the fuel system for leaks, the engine fired. I download a base tune provided by Michael Pickett, tweaked a few settings and had it idling in about 15 minutes. Now to work out the kinks…

Turbonut: I do have leaks between the cats and the muffler. The muffler is just barely slip fitted to the cats at this time and will be finish welded to align properly with the bumper cover. I hadn’t considered this, and will remove the muffler while tuning (just gets a little loud). BTW, very nice setup…if doing it again, I would have went COP...have always hated all the plug wires and spent a lot of time routing them away from heat and visually out of sight.

IMONBOOST: The turbos have internal wastegates and I believe that they are set the same. Both are getting vacuum from the same source. Even off of boost, I see inconsistencies from left to right. The fuel rails are identical, with equal length feed lines and exit through a single fuel pressure regulator. I did swap the sensors left to right and saw consistent results

Jpnovak: I did perform a free air calibration, but the controllers are not grounded to the same place, hadn’t considered that. When seeing 14 on one side, I will see anywhere from 11-12 on the other. I am using TunerStudio but am only logging one WB but monitoring with 2 gauges. I have switched the input to MS between the two controllers and confirmed that the gauges match what MS is receiving.

David: I was hoping that the cam timing wasn’t the issue, but will add it to the list to verify left to right. Due to the packaging constraints, pulling plugs is a real pain…I was hoping that I would not need to so soon, but am thinking this is the only way to see which plugs are getting too much/little fuel.

Sjf911: O2 sensors are after the turbos and before the cats, both sides are in the same location. I am using two techedge controllers with NTK L1H1 sensors and believe they are calibrated similarly. If I switch the controllers and sensors left to right, I am seeing the same result with the right side being richer than the left.

Jpnovak: I have not verified that the injectors are flowing the same…how would I do this? When I purchased them, they were flow matched, but that was a couple of years ago and they have been on the shelf since them. I do have two sets of injectors and I would not rule out the possibility that I may have mixed them up. I checked the resistance at each injector when I built the harness, but it would be worth checking again. They are wired left bank, right bank.

911st: My fuel rails are in parallel, fuel filter runs to a fuel log splitting to each rail and then to a single FPR


Thoughts on diagnostic steps:

1. Remove muffler to eliminate possible issues with exhaust leaks
2. Ground both WBO2 to the same place (does this need to be the same ground point as the MS ECU)
3. Use a single O2 sensor and controller and swap side to side to get baseline readings and rule out differences between WB controllers/sensors
4. Pull plugs to determine if an over/under fueling condition exists in a specific cylinder (does it matter if I pull top or bottom or do I need to look at both?)
5. Pull injectors and verify each is firing and has a reasonable spray pattern
6. Verify consistent flow across injectors (how can I do this?)
7. Verify cam timing

Since pictures are worth a thousand words...






























Old 09-13-2010, 03:00 PM
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Beautiful install....

You could install a dual unit with fresh O2 sensors and do a careful free air calibration. I am bit biased for this unit since I have a single version of the this Wego IV instrument in my 1973 911 MFI and love it. Great instrument and great value for the money.

With this great motor of yours I would install a dual AFR permanently and have real time readings plus the bonus of 2 hours of data logging to look at on your laptop at any time.



Our host sells this one.....here is a photo:

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Old 09-13-2010, 03:32 PM
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Send your injector to RC Engineering and have them cleaned and flow tested. They will then send you back the injector and will tell you the flow reading on each one. The best way would be to send them ALL the injectors you have. Its easier to match 6 out of 10 injectors that way you will get the closest matching ones to install on your beautiful motor
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:48 PM
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Megasquirt has an injector test mode if you want to test them yourself:

MegaSquirt-II Injector Test Mode
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:11 PM
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MyTurbo, I went round and round when I had the issue. First Simon at Motec said it sound's like the cams. I didn't believe it since I was sure I had them right so I completely replumbed the fuel system on the engine. There was no change. Then my tuner said it sounds like the cams. I didn't believe and thought it could be some other fueling issue so I tried adding more fuel to one side and taking fuel from the other with ECU programming. There was very little change.

So I pulled the engine and checked the cams. Sure enough they were off, probably more than I'd like to admit.

At least try to pull a plug from each side and see what they look like. All 6 left plugs looked almost identical and all 6 right did too, they just looked like they came from different engines.


BTW, the build looks awesome!!!!
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Last edited by David; 09-13-2010 at 05:16 PM..
Old 09-13-2010, 05:07 PM
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Maybe switch the O2's and or the connections from side to side to see if the richness readings follow the sensors or leads.

What happens if there is some oil blow by on one side? Dose it effect the O2 readings?

Just thinking out loud. How much can playing with cam timing effect VE?

I am guessing it can move peak TQ up or down about 500rpm if moved to both extremes but I do not know this for sure. I would not think it would effect how much peak TQ would be made very much. Just where.

There is a thread here some where, where a PCA club racer re-timed his 3.2 normally aspirated cams and dynoed in search of more corner exit speed. It only effected peak HP about 3% in his case. However, Porsche re-timed the cams between 77&78 and Hp dropped from 200 to 180hp and HP peak moved from 6000 to 5500rpm which is 10% if that was the only change and the reported spec's are accurate. I am suspect as the reported TQ peak rpm point did not change between the years but peak TQ changed from 188 to 165# suggesting a change in VE's.

If it is the cams and the variance is significant then it seems there should be shift in which side is rich some where around the TQ peak area. And in the area where the TQ curve is mostly flat the AFR's might be ballanced.


Last edited by 911st; 09-13-2010 at 07:48 PM..
Old 09-13-2010, 07:45 PM
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