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3.6 turbo build (advice and info needed)

So, I picked up a 3.6 turbo long block and I need some advice and a little info on a mild street setup. The long block was run with twin turbos with some stupid high HP numbers but I only want to run a single turbo with HP numbers in the 400 range and very street able. I may like the ability to add a touch more boost or something for more power later but I think 400hp will be enough.

Specs:
Mildly ported heads
EVO GT2 cams
Pauter Rods
3.6 Malhe turbo pistons/cylinders
Niro ringed heads
ARP head studs
GHL 930 headers 1-5/8"

I figured now that I have spent a good portion of my budget on the long block, i could go with some lower end bolt on items for now. I will be using a standard 964 plastic intake but, will upgrade injectors to support the fuel needs for the HP rates I want to end up with. Here is a list of things I am not sure about yet and any thoughts on these items as well as cheaper alternatives would be nice.

Tubro (K27 or GT35)
Wastegate (stock 930??)
Blowoff valve (stock 930?)
Stand along ECU or re-mapped 964 DME?
Injector size for 400-500hp with being street-able

For right now, the goal is getting something put together for a running car so, if I can avoid a $1500 turbo and $4000 Motec and other high dollar goodies i would be pleased. You guys with more turbo knowledge than me please give me some ideas on what to do.

Thanks
Mike

Last edited by Mike Hall; 10-13-2011 at 07:45 PM..
Old 10-13-2011, 07:40 PM
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We've done more than our share of 1994 Turbo 3.6 builds. Your goal of 400hp -- even 400rwhp -- is really easy to achieve. Based on past dynos, it'll probably do 400hp at the flywheel around 0.5bar boost, and about 400rwhp on pump gas at stock 0.8bar boost pressure.

You've got a lot of the right ingredients already, off to a great start: rods, head studs, ported heads, cams, headers.

If the car is mostly for the street, the only think I'd change from your current list is maybe the cams. The GT2 cams don't have the best idle, nor great manifold vacuum. Consider a cam with more lobe separation (SC, 964, etc.)

The 964 plastic manifold works great, especially with the simpler round 1992-95 throttle body. Be sure to examine the injector bases, and use all the rubber manifold couplers from the 993 Turbo (fiberglass reinforced). Use the resonance flap -- greatly improves the torque.

GT3582R turbocharger
Wastegate -- stock 930 if you have it and it's in good condition, otherwise Tial 46 (bolt-on)
Blowoff valve -- 2x stock 3.6T/993TT, or 1x aftermarket
Stand alone ECU -- AEM, Motec M84, MS... what your tuner -- or you -- is comfortable working with
Injector size for 400-500hp with being street-able -- Siemens Deka will work perfectly, fantastic spray pattern

And an intercooler. For your power levels, a stock C2T intercooler will work fine, if you have one. They support ~470rwhp. You can try to modify the manifold's center plenum (ala Ruf RCT) or re-fabricate the intercooler's outlet tank. A Garrettson/Andial intercooler will work, too, and can sometimes be found used to save you $.
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Old 10-13-2011, 08:41 PM
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is the 3.6L turbo engine based off the C2's naturally aspirated 3.6? those numbers are tempting
Old 10-13-2011, 09:38 PM
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This is a 3.6 NA based engine with turbo pistons/cylinders.
Old 10-14-2011, 06:38 AM
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So you have the cylinder heads with 3 threaded studs on the intake flange, not the 2-bolt version?
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:34 AM
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The heads are NA 964 heads or at least I assumed they were. Here are a few pictures of the Long block.



Old 10-14-2011, 07:44 AM
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Are there issues with using NA 964 heads for this setup?

For an engine like this would a LWF be idea or just a standard dual mass flywheel?

I am about to go nuts trying to figure out what all would be needed to do for a DME or stand alone ECU. I wouldn't mind trying a MSIII but, I still have a crap pile of reading to do to see if I want to tackle that or not. I assume you have to create base maps to just get the engine running then tune from there? What are the chances you can get the car tuned good enough to drive a bit before getting dyno work done? I am questioning if the MSIII setup would be a wise choice or not as it looks like to get all the components would put its cost up close to a full on stand alone unit like AEM. Any info on this subject to make my choices easier would be awesome.

Mike
Old 10-14-2011, 09:59 PM
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Yes, the stock 964 heads can be reused...
(a) if there is no cracking in the ceramic exhaust port liners, no chunks missing
(b) the heads get some modifications to take the heat: sodium-filled exhaust valves & new guides, better valve springs (always recommended).
Other mods are available, optional but not required at your modest power goals.
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:15 AM
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I can not be sure but this engine was ran up to almost 700HP by the guy who had it built. I assume that the heads were built to handle the heat from a high HP application that this motor was run at. It was setup with twin turbos and ITBs by another pelican. I guess I should look into the heads to make sure all is good for boost. I really have no desire to have a ultra high HP car right now as I will not be able to do major brake and suspension mods until later on.
Old 10-17-2011, 10:22 AM
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What are you doing with all of the big hp parts?

You selling?
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-18-2011, 08:56 AM
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Tippy, What big HP parts are you referring to? I plan to use the long block as it is even if it is build with parts to handle high HP. I may someday add more power after I get the rest of the car up to a level it can handle the extra power.
Old 10-18-2011, 03:34 PM
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If you need to have anything made Chad @ Fat Cat Fabrication can hook you up, he is very reasonable price wise, it may be worth you popping by his shop one day this week or next while my car is up there and talk over a header setup and then go from there. He can make you whatever you want...
Old 10-18-2011, 05:08 PM
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Thanks for the info on Chat at Fat Cat. I would love to go check out his project and I just might be in touch with him for more than Porsche projects. I do pretty advanced 3D models in Autocad and I may get him to do some laser cutting and tube bending for me. I am always one to have more than one iron in the fire. hahah
Old 10-18-2011, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Hall View Post
Tippy, What big HP parts are you referring to? I plan to use the long block as it is even if it is build with parts to handle high HP. I may someday add more power after I get the rest of the car up to a level it can handle the extra power.
I thought you were maybe getting rid of some of the high HP parts since your goal was lower.

Specifically, the GT2 cams.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-19-2011, 06:32 AM
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I just noticed something that I had a question about. If you look at the picture above with the top of the engine shown, you will see that the cylinders have a spacer about .25" thick between it and the case. I did a vague search on this but didn't come up with anything. What are these spacers and are they normal on a 3.6? Cylinders and pistons were said to be factory turbo units.

Thanks
Mike
Old 10-19-2011, 09:45 AM
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That's because someone has decided to use the 993TT pistons & cylinders for this build. The 993TT cylinders are shorter; the top most part of the cylinder is incorporated into the 993TT head.
The cylinder base spacers are unconventional in 911 builds, and common in air-cooled VW builds. The 800+hp car we built had some billet aluminum spacers when it came to us, nicely machined with factory o-ring seals. We reused them, no issues.
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:44 PM
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Chris, I just got my engine up on a stand and flipped over. I am a bit worried now but maybe it wont hurt too bad. The front two cylinder heads have some damage to the ceramic exhaust ports. Can this be repaired or would I have to find two new cylinders and have them modified to match the remaining cylinder heads?
Old 10-19-2011, 02:28 PM
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For your initial project: 400 hp at the flywheel around 0,5 bar of boost, if you have a GT3582R which is the best A/R 0.63 now A/R 0.82 or A/R 1.06 ?
I think that it is necessary to know the good A/R for you now...

I think that you need a real professional to answer has this question. I know only Chris (TURBOKRAFT) who is capable of answering...

He has a lot of experience with Garrett GT and he is enormously known in FRANCE, in PORSCHE fan clubs. For me is the best.




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Old 10-19-2011, 11:01 PM
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For me a good choose too is a 6262 SP dual ball bearing Précision with only oil cooled.
The best for the conversion is a turbine housing with V-band in/out.
I know that Vivid-racing uses this turbo for its 996 carrera turbo conversion with a little turbine housing A/R.63.

For a 964 is good choose because we have only oil in ours engine. No water !!!!!



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Old 10-20-2011, 01:41 AM
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Here are some pictures of the exhaust ports two of which have ceramic chunks missing. This is not the only issue I have with the heads. I just realized that the intake ports have been ported out to 48mm being this engine was used with ITBs. I have some ideas on how to work with this but I need to do more research to see if they will work.

Also, the heads have some welding done on them which can be seen in the picture. This is not factory is it?








Old 10-20-2011, 09:15 AM
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