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Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
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How much peak timing for 1.4-bar of boost?

Was running 22* but I think I heard a minor ping for a split-second.

Turned it down to 20 but wondering if I'm still too advanced.

On a side note, was running 28* at 1.1-1.2-bar before, before the Pelican brain trust told me that's too hot. Boy did it run good though!

Using fully programmable ignition, 93 octane, and single plug 3.4, 7.5CR.

Last edited by Tippy; 01-27-2014 at 06:59 PM..
Old 01-27-2014, 06:54 PM
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22 is probably on the edge if other factors such as mixture and inlet air temps etc are not spot on. I run 20 with 1.2 bar but use a big intercooler with a GT35 and fat mixtures and it seems to be fine. Never heard recorded any knock on the SDS, but I am not using a different EMS without knock control so I just go with 20 at ~1.2bar to be safe.
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1988 930: 3.5L 100mm LN slipins, LN FFA rods, Supertec studs, GT3582R with T4 1.07A/R twin scroll housing, RarlyL8 equal length divided headers, dual Tial MVS 38mm WG's, Carrera 3.2 heads with 993 big valves. 964 Cams, full bay IC, KEP st1 clutch. PE3 sequential ECU with 750cc EV14 injectors, CoP twin plugs, J&S Safegaurd, Aquamist HSF3 water inj. Wavetrac LSD.
Old 01-27-2014, 08:57 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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I'm running around 11.4-11.5 AFR's with a big IC too. Running a 58mm Holset vs your 62mm GT35R. Manifold temps are about 15 over ambient so far. Haven't used in summer temps yet.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel

Last edited by Tippy; 01-27-2014 at 10:45 PM..
Old 01-27-2014, 10:41 PM
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Turbonut
 
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Single plug requires at least 20 degrees of advance, especially with the large combustion chamber of 3.4 but with pump fuel you will be knock-limited.

I would prefer running lower boost but closer to MBT which would create less heat and more power.
Also if you did get knock in current temperatures (in Tx that is, here it is -17C at the moment) you will damage the engine for sure in summer.

The best solution is to add toluene or xylene to gas (no more than 30%) which would let you run 5-6 degrees more advance over current setup easily at 1.4 bars and make much more power without fearing of detonation (though cylinder pressures will be high as they supposed to be at those power levels).
My guestimate would be that engine makes ~700hp @ 1.4 bar and 28 degrees of advance with higher octane fuel.
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:45 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Remember I'm running the 58mm/8-blade HX40 so it would probably max at 600??
Old 01-28-2014, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raceboy View Post
Single plug requires at least 20 degrees of advance, especially with the large combustion chamber of 3.4 but with pump fuel you will be knock-limited.

I would prefer running lower boost but closer to MBT which would create less heat and more power.
Also if you did get knock in current temperatures (in Tx that is, here it is -17C at the moment) you will damage the engine for sure in summer.

The best solution is to add toluene or xylene to gas (no more than 30%) which would let you run 5-6 degrees more advance over current setup easily at 1.4 bars and make much more power without fearing of detonation (though cylinder pressures will be high as they supposed to be at those power levels).
My guestimate would be that engine makes ~700hp @ 1.4 bar and 28 degrees of advance with higher octane fuel.
Has anyone ever run Toluene in a injection system? I always wondered about this? I think is is pretty hard on plastic parts though. Philip
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philip j View Post
Has anyone ever run Toluene in a injection system? I always wondered about this? I think is is pretty hard on plastic parts though. Philip
Good point.
CIS fuel heads have some rubber o-rings in them and the aluminum lambda head has a more flexible synthetic diaphram that might not like toluene.
EFI fuel rails and injectors should handle it so as long as the fuel pressure regulator you use will tolerate toluene it should be ok.
Old 01-28-2014, 08:22 AM
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I run 25 degree timing on mine with 1.1 bar of boost.. For a little safty I run a meth injection kit. I have it plummed into the outlet of the intercooler pipe. After I do quick run I ck the temp at the output of the intercooler and it is cooler than temp outside.. It has worked great for me for 2 years.
I have single plug ignition and xdi ignition system....
Old 01-28-2014, 10:29 AM
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Tippy, are you pulling timing at the onset of your power curve then adding back up top? I was at 26* at 6400 on e85
Old 01-28-2014, 11:11 AM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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No, but I need to. I think it probably had the slight ping at peak torque.
Old 01-28-2014, 06:15 PM
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Turbonut
 
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Oh, yeah, with 58mm HX40, it will make maximum ~600 whp..

We have used toluene on BMW E30 that had M30B35 fully built engine in it and Holset HX40 Super. At 1.7 bars it made 730 hp with 19 degrees of advance. It was scary to drive. Toluene did not cause any issues but the mixtures need some adjustment.

Remember, 1980's turbo-era F1 engines ran on pure toluene so it has been used with some success
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:28 PM
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Forced Induction Junkie
 
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Tippy,
What cams are you using?
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:43 AM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
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Stock Carrera 3.2 which are identical to SC cams.
Old 01-29-2014, 04:46 PM
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I have used xylene 20% mixture and it was no problem with 1.3-1.4 bar. Then I tried metanol but it choosed to abandon that solution, due too many factors that could fail. So now I use etanol.
The car seemed more easy on the trottle, more responsive, with 20% xylene. But with etanol I can increase the turbo pressure. LOL
Old 01-30-2014, 10:54 AM
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