Case Squirters

[JB]

Does anybody know the technical details of installing case squirters? Are they a press fit? If so how much interference? Is the case drilled with a step so the squirters will bottom out in the bore at the right depth? Ant info would be appreciated.

[Wayne 962]

It's best to leave this to a machine shop - I don't know the specific maching steps that Walt uses to ensure that these are in there tight...

-Wayne

[snowman]

Wayne,
I hate that answer because it is condesending and useless.

I to would like the info. The angle the squirters must be installed at is very important , what it it?

THe squirters are about 3/4 of an inch long, just guessing from having looked at a couple and are press fit. Since the case is Magnesium or Aluminum I would use 0.003" interferance fit, plus red loctite, plus a little punch security. I suspect that they are just pressed in till they are flush at the top. I have never done them so I am interested in the details myself.

Can anyone help?

[Wayne 962]

Jack, you are a novice's worst nightmare Here you are recommending a procedure for something that you know nothing about. 99.9% of the people on this board do not have the skills or equipment to perform this procedure in their garage. Attempting major work on your case is both risky and foolhardy. Walt has years of experience in working with these cases, and knows the hints, tricks and short-cuts that will not destroy the case, and also produce a result that will not fail.

Want to have your piston squirters fall out of your newly rebuilt engine? Sure, do it yourself. Heck, why don't you remove your own appendix too next time you have a stomach ache.

-Wayne

[snowman]

IT ain't rocket science Wayne.

[ChrisBennet]

Jack only asked how it was done, posited a guess, but didn't recommend how to do it. Replacing the squirters may be a scary job (don't hit the bearing journals!) but once they are staked in they aren't going anywhere.
-Chris

[JB]

Wayne, Jack, I'm trying to get the specs so my local machine shop can do the job. Wayne, your right; Walt does do a great job and that is why he is backlogged by 50 cases and at least 6 months. I'm trying to make the club race at TMS at the end of the month and need to find an economically acceptable alternative to sending my case to CE.

The way I see it, the issues are:

type of fit: interference or net .... The squirters are aluminum and look like they could be damaged by using a lot of force to press them in.

blind hole or stepped hole? A stepped hole would provide a positive stop for the inserted position of the squirter.

Orientation? Is it critical? is +/- 2 degrees acceptable?

How to do the staking? I notice the factory doesn't stake theirs.

Locktite?

Do you guys see any other issues?

Thanks, JB

[john walker's workshop]

sure, just get out the electric drill motor and eyeball the general position and have at it. not! might as well alignbore the case with a brake hone while you're at it. there are precision jigs and milling bits used for this job. i don't think any home garages are set up to do this, much less a repair shop. even a competent automotive machine shop would probably pass on the job, due to no experience with it, and not wanting to ruin someone's case in their first experiment. leave stuff like this to those who are eguipped for the job.

[JB]

So even the shops equipped to do the job learned how to do it somewhere. That's all I'm trying to do. Learn the specifics on doing the job correctly. It's a quest for knowledge.

[Jim Sims]

If Walt at CE is that busy; you may want to check with Ted Robinson at German Precision in Sunnyvale, CA. He does case squirters and everything else related to 911 engines. 800/762-1911; leave a message. German Precision is a good shop and is likely busy too but you may want to check. Jim

[Wayne 962]

Good suggestion Jim. The fact of the matter is that these procedures are indeed highly specialized, and learned from years of experience. I don't know the exact procedures for installing these, and I would be afraid to tell anyone if I didn't know specifically.

If Walt is backlogged, then I'm sure he would be more than willing to tell you the procedures and the specs...

-Wayne

[TimT]

I had Ted at German Precision machine my case for squirters. I sourced the 964 squirters myself so all Ted did was the machine work.

The case came back to me with a stepped hole, the squirters were barely an interference fit, i.e. slight finger pressure was needed to seat them.

I asked Ted how to secure the squiters he said to stake the squirter with a small cold chisel or punch, 3 punches, one each 120 deg apart (ala the factory). For added peace of mind I used loctite "sleeve" installer, its like red loctite on steroids.


Unless I had a bridgeport, and a trash case to learn on, Id leave the machining to Walt, Ted, or Ollie ( I'm sure there are others that can do this Im not aware of them though)

[snowman]

I can't beleive the eletist attitude here. So even a competant machinest with all the right tools shouldn't try to do this job, what gall. Any machinest worth a nichel can make the necessary fixture to chuck up the case, All I had to do was put some parallels under the case (so I didn't have to remove the head studs) use a couple of universal threaded bolts and clamps to hold the case down, level the case with respect to the table. Then its just a matter of tiltiing the table the to the required angle, using the knob conviently provided to do so, spot the desired locations, drill and then ream to size. If any machinest can't do this he shouldn't be using the machine. If there is any doubt about the ability to press fit the squirters I would make the hole the exact same size as the squirter, and then use a punch to stake them in place. As to haveing a step, you can decide by looking at the squirter. If the squirter has a step, then use it, if not, put a small step in the bottom of the hole. The squirters go to the case bolt holes which carry pressurized oil.
THe flow must be directed at the underside of the piston. All that is needed is the magic angle and location. YOu could try and figure this out yourself, but THATS taking a real chance, as opposed to doing almost trival machine work.
I say if someone wants to work on their own case let them, as long as they are adequately forwarned. IT IS THEIR CASE afterall.

[john walker's workshop]

a shop that's not set up for a certain thing, probably isn't going to spend hours building a jig for something they likely won't see again. not unless they're "retired" like you, and have a ton of free time. if you have a machine shop in the garage, and know how to work them, then what's stopping you, otherwise leave it to the pros. get off the high horse snowman.

[Doug Zielke]

Originally posted by snowman
I can't beleive the eletist attitude here.

You've got a lot of nerve by impling the professionals that make this Board what it is are "eletist" (sp).

For instance, you don't have a clue when you try and compare your miniscule amount of knowledge to that of John Walker. Not a clue!

And Wayne Dempsey didn't turn out a valuable handbook like he did, by filling it with misinformation. He did it with hours of research and fact-finding.

Your comment is an insult to these, and other valuable contributors to this board.

[jim72911t]

My two cents:

I'm a very experienced machinist, both conventional and CNC. I have access to a very well equipped machine shop and excellent tooling. I've been doing research for a couple of months now on the processes involved to do various machining tasks on my '72 911 case, including time certs and the oil bypass mod.

Guess what I did Tuesday? Dropped the case off at a local Porsche machine shop to have the work done. I talked to the owner at length, explained my credentials, experience, and tools, and came away very impressed with his knowledge. He's been doing Porsche motors for 30+ years and has all of the tooling and fixtures necessary to do the job properly. To me, it's just not worth the time it would take to set everything up properly, and it's not worth risking destroying my (relatively inexpensive) case.
I look at it as a grand or so well spent. Kind of like buying the proper tools for the job, IMO. The guys who do this stuff have spent lots of years honing their craft, and should be both respected and compensated for their efforts.

Besides, the last place I want to find out that I machined something incorrectly would be on turn 8 at Willow Springs!

Jim

[john walker's workshop]

exactly what i was talking about.

[snowman]

You all are incredible. Trying to make a simple thing some kind of Magic. Takes a magician, ie person in the business, ie getting paid to do the work, to understand it. Protecting the turf. That simple. To afraid that just anyone can do it.

[snowman]

PS I will find out what the magic angles and locatins are and post them for anyone who may want to use them for any reason whatsoever.

[snowman]

PPS Yourall still haven't helped the person who need the info because of a time constraint. He has a machinest willing to do the job, just lacks info. What gives anyway? Probably don't know the answer to begin with.