Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog Tech Info Tech Forums
 
  Search our site:    
 Cart  | Project List | Order Status | Help    
  Join us November 1st for Casino Night at the Pelican Parts Open House!
Benefiting LuMind - Research and Treatment for individuals with Down Syndrome
Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > 911 Engine Rebuilding Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Life moves pretty fast.
 
quint22cp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 81
Garage
Question ARP head studs

I've got to the part in my 3.5 rebuild where it's time to fit the head studs.

I have bought ARP ones (nice box) and looking on this site there seems to be a lot of contradicting information as to how to fit them.

Do I glue them in with Loctite like the originals ?

These studs have a "nose" on the end, what is the installed height ?

I asked ARP these questions and they said look at the instructions on the back of the box,

what instructions
__________________
Twin plugging, you know it makes sense
Old 04-24-2007, 10:26 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
E-85 sippin drunk
 
turbobrat930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 1,160
I was told DO NOT locktite the ARP headstuds in.... the tech guy at ARP advised to use the same moly lube that came with the studs that you use on the top of the studs, washers, and nuts. So, put the lube on the threads that go into the case as well. I did this on my watercooled VW and have had no problems. When I was putting my 930 motor back together, I called ARP, and they advised the same for both sides of the studs. Make sure that all the studs are inserted into the case the same length. Hope this helps.... I would call ARP tech reps just to confirm..... for your own reassurance... Brad

bty, the instructions should be on the cardboard outer sleeve of the box...
__________________
Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Pauter rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GT-35r turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 04-24-2007, 02:41 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 151
Re: ARP head studs

Quote:
Originally posted by quint22cp
I've got to the part in my 3.5 rebuild where it's time to fit the head studs.

I have bought ARP ones (nice box) and looking on this site there seems to be a lot of contradicting information as to how to fit them.

Do I glue them in with Loctite like the originals ?

These studs have a "nose" on the end, what is the installed height ?

I asked ARP these questions and they said look at the instructions on the back of the box,

what instructions
What ever you do, don't bottom them out, screw them all the way in and then backup two turns., Candy.
Old 04-24-2007, 03:49 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Constitutional Patriot
 
Turbo_pro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: irvine
Posts: 4,126
I have been reading about ARP head studs coming loose.
I think Steve commented on this problem.

I used Supertec head studs on my 375 hp 3.5 Turbo and they have stayed in place for over 18K without retorquing.

They (Sup) are installed using blue Loctite in the case and anti seize on the nut. They are designed differently but I wonder if loctite may cure the ARP loosening problem?
__________________
Jim

"The [contemporary liberal] standard for smartness is
not achievement but glib rhetoric, smug airs and
presumptuous proposals.'
"Thomas Sowell
Old 04-24-2007, 05:02 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 151
The factory studs (latest divalar) come with a locking compound already on the stud.,Candy.
Old 04-24-2007, 06:17 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,102
I can't imagine why there would be a problem using locktite to hold these studs in. Also can't imagine why you'd put assembly lube on the end that goes into the case. There should be a measured depth to install these to. You could do a trial assembly of one cylinder and head to see how deep to install them and get the right amount of thread for the nuts. Just be sure that they aren't bottomed out like Candy says.

-Andy
__________________
72 Carrera RS replica, Spec 911 racer
Old 04-24-2007, 08:12 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
E-85 sippin drunk
 
turbobrat930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 1,160
Quote:
Originally posted by Eagledriver
I can't imagine why there would be a problem using locktite to hold these studs in. Also can't imagine why you'd put assembly lube on the end that goes into the case. There should be a measured depth to install these to. You could do a trial assembly of one cylinder and head to see how deep to install them and get the right amount of thread for the nuts. Just be sure that they aren't bottomed out like Candy says.

-Andy
call ARP...thats what the tech told me.... I questioned it as well, but they are the ones who made the item, so they should know...
__________________
Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Pauter rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GT-35r turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 04-24-2007, 09:01 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 5,984
Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo_pro
I have been reading about ARP head studs coming loose.
I think Steve commented on this problem.

They (Sup) are installed using blue Loctite in the case and anti seize on the nut. They are designed differently but I wonder if loctite may cure the ARP loosening problem?
Hi Jim:

A clarification is needed.

The ARP studs never loosened from the case as long as they were installed properly. The head NUTS were the ones that loosened up and in a few cases; backed up almost all the way off the threads.

One well known engine builder suggested to me that I failed to torque them properly and I told that fine gentleman that not only di I know hoe to use these tools, but our torque wrenches are checked & recalibrated at least once a year. We use Snap-On split-beam models as well as the new electronic ones...

Hope this helps,
__________________
Steve Weiner
Rennsport Systems
Portland Oregon
(503) 244-0990
porsche@rennsportsystems.com
www.rennsportsystems.com
Old 04-24-2007, 10:46 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Constitutional Patriot
 
Turbo_pro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: irvine
Posts: 4,126
Hi Steve
I believe proper installation of ARP head studs is what this thread is about.
It was not my intention to put words in your mouth.
I was just trying to add something of value to the conversation. Referencing an expert incorrectly was not what I set out to do.
What fool questioned your expertise? I for one believe that you have the required knowledge to operate a torque wrench properly.

Don't you think that anti seize on any tread could promote loosening?

Do you use Loctite on the case end?

Why do you think the ARP studs are coming loose?
__________________
Jim

"The [contemporary liberal] standard for smartness is
not achievement but glib rhetoric, smug airs and
presumptuous proposals.'
"Thomas Sowell

Last edited by Turbo_pro; 04-25-2007 at 06:14 AM..
Old 04-25-2007, 06:11 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 5,984
Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo_pro
Hi Steve
What fool questioned your expertise? I for one believe that you have the required knowledge to operate a torque wrench properly.

Don't you think that anti seize on any tread could promote loosening?

Do you use Loctite on the case end?

Why do you think the ARP studs are coming loose?
Hi Jim:

No worries, mate.

It would be inappropriate to name the party that suggested my inability to use a torque wrench on a public forum, even though the other party did just that,...

I have never used nor needed anti-seize on head studs, but I do use Loctite to anchor the case ends. Since it releases very easily with heat, its not a problem at all. I use anti-seize (copper or nickel based) on fasteners living in harsh environments that will be disassembled from time to time. Exhaust systems are a perfect example as well as suspension hardware that anchor into aluminum alloys.

Its my view that ARP head studs, while an excellent metallurgical product, do not accurately match the expansion rate of these engines very well and the head nuts loosen over time, especially with engines that operate at higher temps (930's, race motors, etc).

I use steel studs on the little engines and 993TT/RSR Dilavars on everything else. Been doing this since 1993 with no issues whatsoever.
__________________
Steve Weiner
Rennsport Systems
Portland Oregon
(503) 244-0990
porsche@rennsportsystems.com
www.rennsportsystems.com
Old 04-25-2007, 06:49 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
shbop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Oahu
Posts: 2,048
Steve, What defines a "little engine"?

Thank you!
__________________
Jon

911 #303129
81' SC project
77' 930
Old 04-25-2007, 10:11 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Life moves pretty fast.
 
quint22cp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 81
Garage
Well I got through to ARP's tech' department and this is their official installation procedure:-

Hand tighten them in,
Use the supplied lube and torque to 38 ft/lb,
You can use Loctite if you want but torque 'em' down before the Loctite sets.

What about installed height ?
No answer on this one.

I was not over impressed by the quality of the advice, either they answer these questions every hour or they make it up as they go along.

So I'm going to hand tighten them in, back them out to the correct length, use Loctite, torque 'em' down.

and while I'm on here I did my own machining for twin plugging my heads, all worked out really well, didn't need to use any messy wax in the fins, I have a "patented" two bits of wood approach. If anyone is thinking of doing this I can advise and put some pics up.

Cheers Pete
__________________
Twin plugging, you know it makes sense
Old 04-25-2007, 01:23 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
shbop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Oahu
Posts: 2,048
and while I'm on here I did my own machining for twin plugging my heads, all worked out really well, didn't need to use any messy wax in the fins, I have a "patented" two bits of wood approach. If anyone is thinking of doing this I can advise and put some pics up.


Sure like to see that.
__________________
Jon

911 #303129
81' SC project
77' 930
Old 04-25-2007, 01:37 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Life moves pretty fast.
 
quint22cp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 81
Garage
well as your interested.

I thought the sticking wax in the fins a really messy approach as I had just paid 90 to have the whole lot bead blasted. If this pic uploads OK, I made a clamp out of two bits of packing case backed with 1" x 1" steel box. Worked great, no vibration no broken fins.
__________________
Twin plugging, you know it makes sense
Old 04-25-2007, 01:52 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
ChrisBennet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nashua, NH USA
Posts: 7,935
Raceware head studs are also used without Loctite on the case ends.
-Chris
__________________
'80 911 Nogaro blue Phoenix!
'07 BMW 328i Coupe
http://members.rennlist.org/messinwith911s/
Old 04-25-2007, 02:05 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Try not, Do or Do not
 
Henry Schmidt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fallbrook, Ca. 92028
Posts: 5,288
I don't use ARP head studs but if they use 12 point nut instead of allen nuts (stock Porsche) then installed hieght has no meaning.
38 lbs ? That seems like a huge number. Not my product but I would have to ask how they came up with that number.
I would only use that kind of torque on a 800 hp 1/4 mile motor.
__________________
Henry Schmidt
SUPERTEC PERFORMANCE
Ph: 760-728-3062
Email: supertec1@earthlink.net
Old 04-25-2007, 02:07 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 5,984
Quote:
Originally posted by shbop
Steve, What defines a "little engine"?

Thank you!
Anything with an 86mm bore and under,....
__________________
Steve Weiner
Rennsport Systems
Portland Oregon
(503) 244-0990
porsche@rennsportsystems.com
www.rennsportsystems.com
Old 04-25-2007, 02:51 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Snohomish, WA
Posts: 1,317
Garage
I used ARP studs on my rebuild. I carefully measured the stud height to arrive at a height where the 12 point nut was in the middle of the available thread. I found that the hieght was correct when measuring to the top of the thread, before the taper on the rounded top. I still have less than 10,000 miles on my rebuild - but I plan on checking my head nut torque during regular valve adjustments.
__________________
Rex
1975 911s and 2003 BMW M3
1961 BMW R50/2, 1995 BMW R1100RS, 1979 Yamaha RD400F
Old 04-25-2007, 02:55 PM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
 
Now available:  101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Suffolk, VA
Posts: 136
Just to keep the record straight. I'm not sure if I'm the Steve referred to, but I did recently post that maybe my ARP head studs were backing out. I now have all the studs out, and can say that most of them were firmly in place. None seemed to back out or be loose. Two were pulled -both on No. 1 cylinder exhaust & intake toward the front of the engine.

My memory is that the height is 135mm to the top of the threads. That's what they were when I removed them. 38 ft-lbs is the same torque value I got from ARP, too. I also asked them to send me the installation sheet for that kit. ARP moly lube on the top; nothing required on the bottom - but if a sealant is used ... torque before it sets.

By the way, the hardware looks perfect after 30K miles and 5 years.

Based on what Steve said, maybe I should go back to the new style dilavar. More choices . . .
__________________
Steve
'89 Carrera 4
Old 04-26-2007, 06:58 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Loose nut bhind the wheel
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 262
I used blue locktite at the case and ARP lube at the top. Installed height of 135mm to the top of the threads also. Using the ARP washers the threads should be just at the top of the 12 point nut when you do final torque. I used factory torque specs on mine since I have a Mag case. I will retorque to factory specs at each valve adjustment.
__________________
Ed

1970 911S Targa 2.7RS MFI dual plug 10.5:1
1974 260Z SCCA ITS
1998 M3
Old 04-26-2007, 09:01 AM
  Recommend this thread for the PelicanWiki    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Old 04-26-2007, 09:01 AM
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:16 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2011 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.