using a "coil pack" ignition

[JohnJL]

Haltech re-labels Bosch units. I have been displeased with the durability, service has been excellent.

[safe]

Originally Posted by Phoenix-MN

Mark,
So the Kawasaki coils are being driven by 12 Volts and the Electromotive Controller? (Best I can tell from Kawasaki service manuals is that the coils run on 100 volts).

Also, other than getting a wiring harness is there a source or part number for the connectors for the coils?

Thanks
Paul

I have also read the service manual for the Kawasaki now, and you are right they require 100 volt to operate unlike normal coilpacks.

To your question this company has tones of connectors for japanese stuff.
http://www.dataspares.com/acatalog/cconnectors.html

[Phoenix-MN]

"Also,
other than getting a wiring harness is there a source or part number for the connectors for the coils?"

This has a simple solution . Discovered today that the conector for the Ford EDIS VR sensor is the same and should be available from a multitude of sources (dealer, NAPA, Checker, etc.)

Now, it needs to be determined if these coils will work. Time for some more research.

Paul

[911st]

I am not sure I understand this stuff but:

It looks like the compu-tronix system turns the distributor into a sensor that determines which cylinders are supposed to be up for ignition. Then it must use a trigger that replaces the points to fire the expected cylinder (s).

Why could not this approach be used with the stock 3.2 Motronics ignition signal in some way?

It would take a small additional controller of some type that senses which cylinder is to get a spark (like the compu-tronix system?) from a sensor at the distributor and use the Motronics ignition signal to trigger the timed spark.

A custom twin plug chip map would be best or could just retarding the spark using the fuel quality switch on the factory ecu.

No timming wheels or other drivers needed and could be a snap in system.

[CruiseControl]

JohnJL
Using the Bosch 3 channel ignitors (2 of) operating two Ford 6 pack coils. No problems.
Are your ignitors mounted with heat sink goop, and to ample size heat sink.

Paul

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by oemexp

They are the later type that come from ~2005 ZX600 bikes. Here's an ebay link for a set of 4 for $45.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/05-Kawasaki-Ninja-ZX-600-Ignition-Coils-ZX600_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el111 6QQitemZ220161484245

I've collected boxes of them for my race engines and they work great.

The Iridium plugs that come in the "R" version of these bikes are also very good. They are 10mm plugs so you have to weld up the plug hole and re-tap. The heat ranges are very cold for high compression and you can get more compression with 2 of these small plugs in the head. The plug relief volume is much smaller.

I'm currently building a GT3 motor for my 914-6 race car so I guess I'm going back to grown-up sized plugs. I'm still going to use the bike coils with my Electromotive controller.

Mark

Originally Posted by safe

I have also read the service manual for the Kawasaki now, and you are right they require 100 volt to operate unlike normal coilpacks.

To your question this company has tones of connectors for japanese stuff.
http://www.dataspares.com/acatalog/cconnectors.html

I'm a little confused.......what else is new?!
OEMEXP says he's been using these Ninja coil-over-plug units for years. Yet, the Ninja ignition system uses 100V drivers for their COP coils. Which is right?

[safe]

OK, here comes another alternative:



This it the coil used on Audi/VW 1.8 T engines, part number 06B 905 115R. They are relatively cheap new, as they have had big quality problems, so you want the latest version of them.
This link shows a conversion to use them on another Audi engine, but one can use the information for any other engine:
http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/downloads/pdf/18tCoilPackConversionInstructions.pdf

They fit quite well on our engines, but you will either have to use plugs with a smaller hex socket or cut down the sheet metal on the coil a little.

[89turbocabmike]

The 1.8T coils are pretty cheap at $30 new from the dealer, but even the new one's have issues. Ask any 1.8T guy and most carry at least one spare at all times. Even the new 2.0T coils are starting to have similar issues with as little as 15K miles! 75% of my customers are modded late model VW/Audis so I see this failure every day. Luckily they are easy to change and easy to diagnose on a four cylinder. My concern would be to put a coil with a questionable track record into a critical twin plug situation where a faulty coil is more difficult to diagnose.

[kenikh]

Originally Posted by 89turbocabmike

My concern would be to put a coil with a questionable track record into a critical twin plug situation where a faulty coil is more difficult to diagnose.

This is a deal killer, for sure.

[safe]

Originally Posted by 89turbocabmike

The 1.8T coils are pretty cheap at $30 new from the dealer, but even the new one's have issues. Ask any 1.8T guy and most carry at least one spare at all times.

Yes, I borrowed one from a friend

Originally Posted by 89turbocabmike

Even the new 2.0T coils are starting to have similar issues with as little as 15K miles! 75% of my customers are modded late model VW/Audis so I see this failure every day. Luckily they are easy to change and easy to diagnose on a four cylinder. My concern would be to put a coil with a questionable track record into a critical twin plug situation where a faulty coil is more difficult to diagnose.

What I've heard is that they fail mostly on modified engines (high boost), not stock ones.
I'm running a pretty stock N/A engine and single plug, so they will probably be fine. Beside we does not know what the Kawa-coils has for track record.

[safe]

Originally Posted by 89turbocabmike

My concern would be to put a coil with a questionable track record into a critical twin plug situation where a faulty coil is more difficult to diagnose.

Originally Posted by kenikh

This is a deal killer, for sure.

To expand on this, any COP soluotion woud have this potential problem. It should be possible to build some kind of monitoring/varning system that monitors power consumption from each coil.

Mike, do you know how or what that fails in the coils?

[89turbocabmike]

Originally Posted by safe

Yes, I borrowed one from a friend




What I've heard is that they fail mostly on modified engines (high boost), not stock ones.
I'm running a pretty stock N/A engine and single plug, so they will probably be fine. Beside we does not know what the Kawa-coils has for track record.

Sorry Magnus, when I think twin-plug I'm always thinking about a 930 No offense intended to my N/A brethren!

Yes, I would guess that these would be under less stress in a N/A application. Most chipped(reflashed) 1.8T run a peak of 18psi that tapers due to a small turbo to about 14psi toward redline compared to the stock boost of 12psi tapering to 9psi. They fail in both stock and chipped situations, just more often in chipped vehicles. So they could be fine for N/A application. I'm not sure what dies in them, some just die completely others start misfiring under load.

[Dennis Kalma]

Any chance of doing the airplane thing....you know, where they have twin magneto's and turn them off one at a time and see if the engine starts to miss?

I was thinking that an "A/B" switch on the dash would be a good thing, not sure about the electrical part, where you could turn off the upper plugs and then the lower plugs and see how it runs.

Obviously, if one of the COP's is bad the engine would miss badly if it were idling on only 5 cylinders....

Did anyone ever answer the question as to why some of these run on 100volts when on their motorcycle installation but get along fine on the 14.6 v auto system? Or do I misunderstand?

Dennis

[kenikh]

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

Any chance of doing the airplane thing....you know, where they have twin magneto's and turn them off one at a time and see if the engine starts to miss?

I was thinking that an "A/B" switch on the dash would be a good thing, not sure about the electrical part, where you could turn off the upper plugs and then the lower plugs and see how it runs.

Obviously, if one of the COP's is bad the engine would miss badly if it were idling on only 5 cylinders....

Did anyone ever answer the question as to why some of these run on 100volts when on their motorcycle installation but get along fine on the 14.6 v auto system? Or do I misunderstand?

Dennis

This is exactly what the old twin plugged Porsche racers had - twin switches in the dash to turn the separate Bosch CDIs on/off.

[304065]

Originally Posted by kenikh

This is exactly what the old twin plugged Porsche racers had - twin switches in the dash to turn the separate Bosch CDIs on/off.

Which procedure, I hasten to add, is best performed at idle RPM with the car stationary!

[safe]

Originally Posted by kenikh

This is exactly what the old twin plugged Porsche racers had - twin switches in the dash to turn the separate Bosch CDIs on/off.

And pretty easy to build into the system.

[safe]

To update this tread, I have completed the build and are using the VAG coils right now, only single plugged. They work great at least this far, ~1500-2000 miles. I was really cheap and bought the coils used from the junkyard, shouldn't have done that, one coil was a dud.... But I carry spares now along with the complete set of tools I already have in the car....and a laptop....

[sjf911]

Originally Posted by safe

To update this tread, I have completed the build and are using the VAG coils right now, only single plugged. They work great at least this far, ~1500-2000 miles. I was really cheap and bought the coils used from the junkyard, shouldn't have done that, one coil was a dud.... But I carry spares now along with the complete set of tools I already have in the car....and a laptop....

You are using the R version compared to the above conversion recommendation of the L version of the coil. What is the difference? Are these ignitor and coils combined or are you using an separate ignitor/controller on a "dumb" coil? Any idea of the coil voltage/energy available and what spark plug gaps they can drive in relation to a boosted engine?

[safe]

I use mostly R-coils, no difference other than reliability.
They are integrated coil and ignitor. They get triggered by +5 volt from the ECU.

The pdf I link to are slightly wrong in the wiring diagram, or I misinterpreted. Both earths from the coil should be earthed directly to the chassie. The 12v to the battery and not from same point as where you get the 12v to the ECU. Only the 5v trigger should be connected to the ECU.
Don't ask me how I know...


Edit:
Not sure what kind of energy they put out, its not a limiting factor on my engine in any case.
They are used on Audis turboengines that are being boosted pretty good, but as commented above with a less than good track record.

I heard that the coils looked pretty much like the coils usen in the 996/997, never seen those, could be worth checking out.

[MrPerkles]

I used a GM v6 coilpack $50 on my EFI,I am going twin plug and will wire in three spare outputs from the ECU to create the spark.You shouldnt piggy back the wires it will lose the signal and find the easiest path