Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > 911 Engine Rebuilding Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 10 votes, 4.60 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Ok, a little bit of progress for the last few days.

I received a message on Wednesday evening from Simon @ Sileck saying that my loom was finished! As it happens, I've had a few days vacation form work this week, so yesterday morning I dshed across to the other side of the county to go and collect it. One or two finishing jobs to do though, specifically to ensure that the final orientation of the 2 x MIL plugs are correct with regards to loom direction. Need to make sure that the harness doesn't foul anything in the vicinity, so the easiest way to do that?....Take the whole intake manifold assembly along, which I removed from the engine as a whole unit a couple of years ago...perfect...almost well-planned!









As mentioned previously, we're going to be running phase and anti-phase boost control. To facilitate that, a second boost controller valve is needed. We had enough spare pins in the original MIL connector to accommodate thus....



Next, I had a go in the evening with trying to remove the very tired looking exhaust studs; if ever there's a time to attempt to get them out, now is most certainly it. I had visited Pete-the-welder and Lewis earlier in the afternoon, to give them a heads-up that I may need their help on Sod-Around-Saturday. And I will. The plumbing gas torch I used with great success many years ago to remove the head studs, didn't get enough heat into the area, and the first one sheared off flush with the head. Bugger. That'll be the first candidate to get welded to an M8 nut, then we'll probably follow that method for the remaining studs. It looks as though a few have snapped off throughout the engines life; I've replaced one (on #2) when I first bought the car, but there are 3 others which have been Timeserted.

Todays work was to try and get the con rods onto the crank. I got as far as forensically cleaning the crank journals with a 3rd clean of the rods and bearing shells.

I'll be using my stretch gauge to tighten the fasteners; it's slim enough that with some crank rotation I can get it in place through the case spigots. So, in advance of doing that, I wanted to record the free length of each bolt and record for future reference, should I need to determine whether a fastener has gone past its elastic limit....





All laid out, ready to go....





...however, some ambiguity in Carrillos paperwork and website got me scratching my head as to the correct stretch dimension required for the particular fasteners I have with these rods.

My bolt heads are marked with S6-N-076, but their documentation describes specs for:

"S6" << possible
"S6-x-xxx-PS" << Definitely a likely candidate
"S6-A-xxx-PS" << Probably not

Now common sense says that the latter p/n with "A" doesn't apply, but which of the other 2? What does that PS suffix mean?

After a quick call with Carrillo themselves, for anyone also wanting to know this, the "S6" line is the one to follow....79Nm/58lbft or 0.130 > 0.180mm of stretch. The PS suffix means Pro Stock.

So, tomorrows job is to get those wretched exhaust studs out, then maybe I can get the rods installed in the evening
Old 11-10-2017, 01:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #881 (permalink)
Registered User
 
'76 911S 3.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 549
Garage
Oh man, that harness is sweet! Love me some Autosports and Raychem. Does your harness builder know that RaceGrade makes some sweet billet back shells for those ECU connectors? Allows you to seal them and put a proper boot on them...

http://www.milspecwiring.com/RaceGrade-Backshell-Black-34P_p_947.html

They make them for both the 34 and 26 way connectors in either black or red anodizing.
__________________
-Jayson
1976 911S Signature Edition
3.2SSt (JE 98mm 9.5:1 pistons, 964 Cams, ARP Rod Bolts, Big Port SC Heads, 3.2 Carrera Manifold, ID725's, B&B Headers, Tial 44mm, TS RacePort, BW S360, AEM Infinity 506, E85)

Last edited by '76 911S 3.0; 11-10-2017 at 03:55 PM..
Old 11-10-2017, 03:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #882 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by '76 911S 3.0 View Post
Oh man, that harness is sweet! Love me some Autosports and Raychem. Does your harness builder know that RaceGrade makes some sweet billet back shells for those ECU connectors? Allows you to seal them and put a proper boot on them...

RaceGrade Backshell (Black 34P)

They make them for both the 34 and 26 way connectors in either black or red anodizing.
Excellent link! Thanks Jayson, I'll forward onto him and probably look to buy a set. (No, I'm not sure he is aware of them)

Cheers,
Spencer.
Old 11-11-2017, 04:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #883 (permalink)
Moderator
 
304065's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,440
When is this assembly going into orbit?
__________________
'66 911 #304065 Irischgruen
Ex-'71 911 PCA C-Stock Club Racer #806 (Sold 5/15/13)
Ex-'88 Carrera (Sold 3/29/02)
Ex-'91 Carrera 2 Cabriolet (Sold 8/20/04)
Old 11-12-2017, 10:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #884 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 304065 View Post
When is this assembly going into orbit?
Pfft! Lord knows mate. Another set-back yesterday, these blessed exhaust studs proved to be a right sod-of-a-job. Only one came out successfully, using oxy-acetylene heat (but carefully and not too much) around the exhaust port, and immediately after welding an M10 nut onto the stud (we tried M8's, hopeless). We called it quits after trying 4, some of which 3-4 times and at £45/hr it wasn't too long before a false economy versus drilling them out. If we had of gradually gotten somewhere, and with the right technique they were gradually coming out, then I would've persevered. But frankly, I didn't want to risk putting too much heat into them and having a head warp issue.

So, time to carefully drill the remaining 7 out. In some ways, I really wish I'd have left well alone...but...neither do I want the hassle of of a sheared stud once the engine was back into the car. Some of those studs looked really crummy.

I've got a VERY heavy duty and rigid pillar drill, plenty of speed adjustability, plenty of torque and a cast iron rotatable table to mount them on with sliding T bolts. There should be no reason why, with some patient and careful mounting, we can't drill them out once they're prepared accordingly for marking-out.

We'll see. Bloody car.

Footnote - we discussed trying to remove the untouched (read, un-sheared) studs out by putting those heads into my oven. The oven has an auto-clean mode, which if i remember correctly, is around 300ºC - probably enough to melt the Loctite....at least this way the whole head is being heated evenly and is safer than just waving an oxy-acetylene torch at it (where we don't know what temperature we're getting it up to).

If anyone's tried this, please let me know before I potentially waste more time.

Last edited by Spenny_b; 11-12-2017 at 11:31 AM..
Old 11-12-2017, 11:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #885 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: France (Paris)
Posts: 219
Garage
Hello Spencer,

A solution has to try Spencer, maybe the thermal décapeur.
Old 11-12-2017, 02:59 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #886 (permalink)
 
Now Available for Ordering:   101 Projects For Your BMW 3 Series 1982-2000  [more info]
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR View Post
Hello Spencer,

A solution has to try Spencer, maybe the thermal décapeur.
A thermal decapeur? (sorry mate, even Google Translate isn't helping me with that one! ) ...have you got a picture of such a tool?
Old 11-12-2017, 03:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #887 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: France (Paris)
Posts: 219
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
A thermal decapeur? (sorry mate, even Google Translate isn't helping me with that one! ) ...have you got a picture of such a tool?
Email ! ;-)
Old 11-12-2017, 03:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #888 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post

Footnote - we discussed trying to remove the untouched (read, un-sheared) studs out by putting those heads into my oven. The oven has an auto-clean mode, which if i remember correctly, is around 300ºC - probably enough to melt the Loctite....at least this way the whole head is being heated evenly and is safer than just waving an oxy-acetylene torch at it (where we don't know what temperature we're getting it up to).

If anyone's tried this, please let me know before I potentially waste more time.
Looking on Loctites website, the Tech Info for Loctite 270 describe that the disassembly needs heat of 250ºC. Looking at the retention strength graph, @200ºC the retention strength drops to <50% vs 22ºC.
Old 11-12-2017, 03:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #889 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR View Post
Email ! ;-)
LOL! I got worried there....Google translation = "Stripper" ...actually quite a good literal translation, being a hot-air paint stripping gun

Yup, good idea....my only concern is that I'm applying local heat to the exhaust area. Of course, the engine gets far hotter than this, but the head would be far more evenly heated when in-service.

However...maybe my oven to heat the whole head, then the heat gun to keep applying the heat whilst attempting to remove the studs? Hmmm...a good way to overcome heat loss whilst transferring the heads from my kitchen to the workshop.
Old 11-12-2017, 03:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #890 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: France (Paris)
Posts: 219
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
LOL! I got worried there....Google translation = "Stripper" ...actually quite a good literal translation, being a hot-air paint stripping gun

Yup, good idea....my only concern is that I'm applying local heat to the exhaust area. Of course, the engine gets far hotter than this, but the head would be far more evenly heated when in-service.

However...maybe my oven to heat the whole head, then the heat gun to keep applying the heat whilst attempting to remove the studs? Hmmm...a good way to overcome heat loss whilst transferring the heads from my kitchen to the workshop.
I have already used a thermal décapeur for this kind(genre) of problem successfully. You should not hesitate to wait that that warms for a long time so that the loctite softens.
Old 11-12-2017, 03:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #891 (permalink)
Moderator
 
304065's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,440
A "thermal décapeur" is a heat gun, for those of you scoring at home. But it sounds cooler.

Spencer, if you want to get the studs out, I would use a torch to melt the loctite, then a pair of hex nuts on the stud with the head held in a padded vise.

Pity you have do to this-- is there any necking down of the studs, like they have been over-torqued? Of course the last thing you want to do is break one once the engine is assembled.
__________________
'66 911 #304065 Irischgruen
Ex-'71 911 PCA C-Stock Club Racer #806 (Sold 5/15/13)
Ex-'88 Carrera (Sold 3/29/02)
Ex-'91 Carrera 2 Cabriolet (Sold 8/20/04)
Old 11-14-2017, 10:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #892 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Hi John,

Quote:
Originally Posted by 304065 View Post
Spencer, if you want to get the studs out, I would use a torch to melt the loctite, then a pair of hex nuts on the stud with the head held in a padded vise.
Yup, we had an oxy-acetylene torch on it at the weekend....the studs were cherry red from welding the nuts onto them (multiple times), so that should've been more than enough to soften any Loctite...but no dice.

We'll try the double nut method again, but I've also have a proper stud extractor "chuck", essentially doing the same as the double nuts. Again, nowt doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 304065 View Post
Pity you have do to this-- is there any necking down of the studs, like they have been over-torqued? Of course the last thing you want to do is break one once the engine is assembled.
Well, a few of them look newer than others, some studs even came out attached to the copper crush nuts when removing the headers (the ones that have previously been Timesert'd). But yes, most of them are very corroded on the threads, and wonky and thin, just like they've been cranked down very hard indeed. I dare not risk leaving them. Do it once, do it properly.

My best mate's coming down here on Friday afternoon; a superb maintenance engineer and has been for many years on industrial food and pharma manufacturing systems. Very used to dealing with recalcitrant hardware, probably extracted more studs than I've had hot dinners. We're preparing for the worst, armed with dozens of top grade drill bits, milling cutters, centre drills. I'm currently rigging the (stupidly heavy) pillar drill up so that we can mount the heads on the compound slide vertically on the table. Helping me is a nice digital spirit level that measures to 0.1º (it's actually part of my camber gauge kit but can work separately as a unit), so everything will be square to the drill head.

Some accurate marking-out and a cool head, we'll have them out in time for a bloody good curry and a beer down the Indian on Friday night.

Last edited by Spenny_b; 11-14-2017 at 04:17 PM..
Old 11-14-2017, 02:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #893 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,263
Try heating the studs/head again with a torch and then melting paraffin on them. It gets wicked into the threads and sometimes does the trick.
Old 11-14-2017, 07:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #894 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by boosted79 View Post
Try heating the studs/head again with a torch and then melting paraffin on them. It gets wicked into the threads and sometimes does the trick.
Thanks for the tip boosted, I'll go to the hardware store and see if they have bars of paraffin so we have another method on standby.
Old 11-15-2017, 05:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #895 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Some quick snaps from the rigging-up of the pillar drill for Fridays action.





(I did actually get the pillar and table aligned perfectly after taking this pic )





Annoyingly, the overall height of the compound slide from the deck of the rotated table, means that I can't get the uppermost studs in line with the chuck....however, having just typed this, and with fresh braincells, I reckon I could reverse mount the heads onto the compound slide bed with some parallels to allow the cam carrier studs to not interfere...hmm I'll try that this evening.

I also treated myself to buying a new garage gadget. Yes, I did learn how to grind drill bits when I was an apprentice, and yes, I can still grind to a reasonable (i.e., passable) standard...but frankly, this comes under the "can't be arsed" category of ways to spend minutes of ones lifespan.



As you do, I quickly reached for the mankiest set of drills in the toolbox and gave it a go. After learning the process for the first bit, every subsequent drill bit is a doddle, very very quick to setup in the holder and grind. This model also grinds a split point if required, as well as 118º and 135º angles. Very nicely made, feels very sturdy (for a plastic device). The only criticism I would give it was something I read in the Amazon reviews, insomuch that the grinding wheel is a little too coarse, leaving a slightly untidy look to the newly ground faces. I'm sure a less coarse wheel is available, which I'll order and swap over.
Old 11-15-2017, 06:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #896 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,263
Those drill docs do a great job, once you get the hang of it, although I don't think it will help the 7/16 I snapped off last week. Try a little cutting oil on the wheel.
Old 11-15-2017, 10:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #897 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Yup, will do!

Yeah, you only get 2-3mm of useful length on a drill bit to grind with, after that the web and therefore the chisel width gets too wide. Splitting the point can help I guess.
Old 11-15-2017, 01:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #898 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Just a very quick update this evening....

Best mate Matt came down from Herts to my neck o'the woods exactly as planned. Nothing like coming well prepared, the boot of his 5-series estate was full of tooling; cutters, drills, you name it..."just in case"

Of course it's always good to catch up face to face, so we had a great afternoon nattering and cracking on with the job in hand.

Three of heads had 4 studs left to extract, untouched and full-length. So, turn the kitchen oven up to self-clean temps and let the heads gradually come up to temp while we try drilling a few of the studs that have sheared off flush with the other heads.

Two heads had studs that were the lower position (i.e., cylinder side of the head not cam side) were mounted in the compound slide, a couple of sliding T studs holding them very securely. Some accurate marking up, centre punching and alignment was all straightforward. A proper centre drill was used to ensure no deflection from the rough remaining surface of the snapped stud.

You simply cannot beat having brand new, proper quality drill bits. In this case Gurhring branded jobber drills and adequate supply of Rocol RTD cutting lubricant. The 3.5mm pilot went through like a hot knife through butter....perfect, and dead central. A 6.8mm bit followed very easily and we could see the roots of the M8 thread. Some bits were picked out using a dental pick, but a run through with an M8 tap has cleaned it up beautifully.....one down...

The second one was done the same way before extracting the heads from the oven....and bloody hell they were hot, uncomfortably hot whilst running from the kitchen to the workshop wearing welding gauntlets!

However....success! The first one came out using the stud extractor. The second sheared, but a double-nut attempt got that out. Unfortunately, the 3rd and 4th both sheared; one flush with the head, the other 10mm above (it was a top stud, under that overhanging shelf of the head fins, couldn't get the extractor low enough).

By this time, we had decided that using the compound slide was impossible for the uppermost studs, so we ended up mounting them directly to the drill table. After setting one up, we used a piece of 1" square angle-iron to clamp to the table and act as a locator for the other heads...not perfect each time, but certainly ball-park requiring only a tap or two to align. Basically, they all went swimmingly well, absolutely no drama at all....just a lot of very careful, unrushed marking out and alignment. In fact, one was so accurate it snagged the remaining steel thread and ejected it as swarf, leaving a perfect unblemished thread, no tapping needed.

And then we had a curry. A bloody big curry. And a beer. Maybe my luck is finally changing?....

Last edited by Spenny_b; 11-17-2017 at 03:22 PM..
Old 11-17-2017, 03:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #899 (permalink)
Kartoffelkopf
 
Spenny_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hell Fire Corner, near Reg Seat of Gvmnt 12
Posts: 1,311
Garage
Well, my 4-day weekend is about to come to a close, but what a productive time it's been. Feeling quite happy with the progress.

Since the update on Friday evening, a number of jobs have now been ticked...

The heads were thoroughly scrubbed for their final clean before re-assembly of the valve gear:



The new valve stem oil seals arrived a few days ago from my OPC, all good...993 items for the thinner stemmed Schrick valves.

By way of a comparison, these 2 pics show the abortion of an install that the "he who shall remain nameless" clown did when building the heads some years ago, in Build#1....glad I took the time to remove and replace them. Honestly, how can you screw this up? With a decent tool, there's no reason to make a complete Horlocks of it like this>>





Anyway....Nice easy job, just had to be careful to use my right arm for the valve spring compressor - having the levers kick open on that with my left arm (a lot better but not 100% repaired yet!) would've been, erm, painful to say the least.



The new rods are now on the crank. Usefully, the stretch gauge I've got is narrow enough to allow me to use it through the cylinder spigots.



My starting point for each fastener was the trusty torque wrench set to 79Nm. Upon checking each fastener with the stretch gauge, the wrench looks to be spot-on, with a stretch of 0.006" (specification is between 0.005 > 0.007")



Next, the final clean-up of the cylinders and pistons, and then the brutal job of trying to install the blessed wrist pin circlips. My God, the wire thickness for those buggers makes them super tough to even try and squash closed by hand. Crazy strong, and I can think of half a dozen design improvements that could make life a LOT easier for fitting. But, after a little YouTube'ing to see if anyone had any tricks-n-tips, I had another go (I'd used up my daily allowance of swear words by this point, I was verbally exhausted). Success this time, although it just can't be done without a little scratching of the lovely moly coating [OCD goes into overdrive].

And a short while later, all three of the right hand bank are on....



Tinware on (above photo, for the eagle eyed, has them incorrectly installed, I know....I changed immediately after taking this pic), and then time to fit the Ni-Resist rings into the heads, and the heads onto the cylinders....but only after spending an hour cleaning all the ARP fasteners (OCD again)



FINALLY, after 2 years of the crankcase sitting on the engine cradle, it's starting to look a little more like an engine again. Tomorrows job is to do 1-2-3 cylinders/heads, then get the cam carriers onto both banks.

Last edited by Spenny_b; 11-20-2017 at 03:26 PM..
Old 11-20-2017, 03:16 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #900 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 

Tags
964 c4/c2/turbo , efi conversion , life racing , syvecs , turbokraft


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:23 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2016 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.