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Oh, I forgot, you should write a book on this adventure and a how to build a set up you have created with parts listing, mods needed, ect...
I would buy one...!!
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1141 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 911 tweaks View Post
Well thought out spenny...
I totally understand the what if brexit thing tanks the British pound and you are in the USA completing the project = read that could 2x+ make the cost...
Plus the car can be checked on after a half hour drive to give you a break from the mega job you are about to jump into...
Go get em... carry on... best of luck with all of this...
Keep the clear thinking on ALL fronts...))
Thanks mate, yep, I've certainly spared the situation no end of thought (read: "agonising", as I tend to be fond of doing!)

Of course, once Matt starts diagnosing the noise (he'll feel/hear it for himself when he drives me across to the train station for my return trip home)...I may get unbelievably lucky and find it's not anything that requires a teardown....maybe it's the flywheel or clutch assy - it was all balanced together, but not beyond the realms of possibility. Maybe a dodgy spigot bearing in the end of the crank? Possibly the input shaft to the transmission? It'd be a travesty to spend a fortune, and commit 90-100 days of transit time with getting it to Chris, only to find it's something ridiculously simple!!
Old 02-06-2019, 02:29 PM
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That last sentence is very sensible. Best of luck, John
Old 02-07-2019, 05:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1143 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jjeffries View Post
That last sentence is very sensible. Best of luck, John
Thanks John!
Old 02-08-2019, 03:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1144 (permalink)
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Ok, time for another update....

Contrary to earlier weather reports, yesterday turned out to be a stunning day (mostly), clear blue winter skies. The perfect day to take a 3.5hr roadtrip up to Silverstone and drop off the car with Fearnsport. I even cracked open the sunroof for a while!

Before getting going, my sense of pride wouldn't allow me to drop the car with them, with the ECU and associated wiring not mounted securely under the passenger seat (I started it the previous evening, then a family situation curtailed play). So, I spent yesterday morning getting it looking a lot more presentable.....not perfect, certainly a little more tidying and mounting of the connectors (chassis) required, but not bad for 2-3 hours....



A little bit of a strange day, insomuch that it was a decent schlep up there, more or less traffic free. No breaks, arrived mid pm, quick cuppa and a natter, then time for Matt and I to go on a drive (him driving), to understand and feel the vibration, then turn straight around and head back south again, sprint across town, get into the Lotus and drive across to my girlfriends house...and due to her cooking a lovely dinner and wanting to be on time, it turned into a very "spirited" drive, he-heh!

Anyway, it was a 15mile journey across to Milton Keynes train station where I then started my return journey home. A mixture of country and dual carriageway roads, so he was able to very clearly feel and hear what I've struggled to describe. Hallelujah! His feedback was that in addition to sounding "coarse" (his words, not mine, although we've used exactly the same term) the engine note itself sounded very flat as the revs climb.

[sidenote] Watching somebody else drive my P&J away after being dropped off, was a strange experience; nobody else has ever driven her, but I have to say, it looked a $million amongst all the other humdrum vehicles. Definitely a keeper! [/sidenote]....I texted Matt later in the evening, and he'd had a good run back, the longer way around it seems, and has now got to "know" the car a lot better; able to reproduce the noise at will. He also commented that there's a lot more refinement to be done on the drivability. Now, compared to the break-in map I had been running, I thought it wasn't too bad at all, but it's encouraging to know that it should be even better after the next dyno session. And to be clear, Northampton Motorsport never did declare their work complete, by any stretch...the calibration I've been running with was merely to make it more drivable to get it home after the very long and frustrating day we had in November.

Of course, his approach is to rule out the simpler stuff first, and that work starts this morning; ignition function and timing, remove transmission, then if needed remove the clutch, then the flywheel and narrow it down. Encouragingly he was very clear on his wish to not unnecessarily strip the engine....it doesn't mean he won't need to do it, but unlike some less reputable outfits, it's not his first step in fixing it, in order to start generating a big bill. Like any of the great engine pro's, if a teardown is needed, he basically does a reverse-build...for instance, measuring the cam timing before undoing anything, studiously recording everything and then carefully disassembling it. All good stuff to hear.

I have to confess, it feels like a MASSIVE weight has been lifted from my shoulders. Yes, every penny now spent is (way) over budget, but I think it'll be worth it for the peace of mind.

More info as-and-when it comes through.

Last edited by Spenny_b; 02-08-2019 at 04:08 AM..
Old 02-08-2019, 04:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1145 (permalink)
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Hi Spencer, I wish you the best of luck in your car, I can’t wait for everything to end so well for you, courage!

Pat
Old 02-08-2019, 09:16 AM
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Spenny...since this thread is 58 pages I'm not sure if you already had the engine oil analyzed to see if there's any signs of engine problem causing noise/vibration. You have been through a lot and hopefully it's a minor problem.
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Old 02-09-2019, 09:11 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1147 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR View Post
Hi Spencer, I wish you the best of luck in your car, I can’t wait for everything to end so well for you, courage!

Pat
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD930
Spenny...since this thread is 58 pages I'm not sure if you already had the engine oil analyzed to see if there's any signs of engine problem causing noise/vibration. You have been through a lot and hopefully it's a minor problem.
Thanks guys as always for the support, appreciated.

@Mike - I didn't send the oil out for analysis, but I did open the oil filter each time after an oil change, to see what was in there. First one after breaking in had a few bits of gunky stuff (Curil-T) in there but no metal. The second was absolutely clean, no nothing.
Old 02-10-2019, 09:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1148 (permalink)
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Update time....

Now....dare I whisper it....we think we've identified a "smoking gun" already.

I received a phonecall from a pretty excited Matt @ Fearnsport at the close of business on Friday. He and his colleague (another Matt) had spent the day trying to rule out the simple(r) potential problems. Like me, Matt was able to recreate the vibration "at will" while the car is stationary, so this naturally rules out the possibility of it being driveshaft and CV joint related.

Step 1) Split my transmission from the engine and install a "spare" single mass flywheel and clutch assembly. Re-mate my transmission and test. This made no difference, the vibration was exactly the same.

Step 2) Split the transmission again, and fit a "spare" 964 RS 'box. I have to confess, I can't remember whether this was with the donor clutch and flywheel still fitted, or whether my original SMFW and clutch assy was re-installed. I understand that the RS tranny is a shorter unit than the G50/52 unit used on the 3.3 Turbo, so for this test the nose of the transmission was not bolted up to the chassis. Instead a transmission jack/stand was supporting it, and of course it was bolted to the engine at the other end.

When Matt fired the engine up, he said he was in a state of disbelief, "like somebody had swapped the engine itself", apparently it felt and sounded COMPLETELY different; very smooth, not so much as a vibration of the transmission on the stand.

So amazed by this, Matt has asked me to travel up there first thing tomorrow morning to see it for myself. So I am!

Trying not to get my hopes up that this is the one-and-only issue, I'll know more this time tomorrow.

Of course, while Matt has the car I'm going to ask him to "mark my homework" on the engine; another leakdown test, check the ignition timing, that we have all 12 sparks, that all the plumbing and breather lines are good, and so on. I'll also ask him to get the injectors ultrasonically cleaned for good measure, and do as much as we can to ensure a successful day on the dyno second time around.

With regards to a potential transmission rebuild, of course it's prudent to renew the synchros and baulk rings, plus any other sundry items like selector forks if necessary. Coincidentally, I had commented to Matt about the transmission sounding really quite agricultural in normal driving. With very little point of reference, I don't know if this is business-as-usual or if this was another indication that the 'box wasn't happy.

It does beg the question of "what's happened to the gearbox, then?" I've done nothing other than clean the case and drain/refill with new transmission fluid. Perhaps this issue was there from Day 1 of me buying the car, and masked by the dual mass flywheel? I only drove it for a handful of months before tearing it apart, and certainly a lot less than 1,000 miles. In manoeuvring the transmission around the garage, it's always beein installed and removed on the ground, nice and square to the engine. I've only lifted it by the nose mount and the bellhousing, so until we strip it and understand what's wrong, that'll remain a mystery.

Back soon with more news....

Last edited by Spenny_b; 02-10-2019 at 01:19 PM..
Old 02-10-2019, 09:39 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1149 (permalink)
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Hi Spencer, I’m glad the problem is finally targeted, maybe you put an unadapted oil in the gearbox, you need a specific oil for the gearboxes with the built-in autoblocker. I look forward to the rest of the news!
Old 02-10-2019, 10:03 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1150 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR View Post
Hi Spencer, I’m glad the problem is finally targeted, maybe you put an unadapted oil in the gearbox, you need a specific oil for the gearboxes with the built-in autoblocker. I look forward to the rest of the news!
Hey Pat!

Hmm, the transmission was filled with a blended recipe of fluids, given to me from a very reputable source - off the top of my head, I can't remember exactly what the mix was, but speaking with Matt, he's pretty confident that the problem with the 'box extends beyond whatever oil was used. I guess the exception to that theory may be if a bearing has failed, but again, this wasn't a completely inappropriate oil (like engine oil!) that was used, it was a blend of regular recommended grade oil, but mixed with an anti-shock oil (I think, again, I need to read back through my notes and remind myself).

I'm going to take my overalls up there tomorrow, and see if I can persuade Matt to start stripping the transmission while I'm there!!

The next question is, "do I upgrade my LSD while we're stripping the unit?" Obvious candidates are Wavetrac or Guard, or maybe just a rebuild of the stock unit. I suppose it depends on the condition of the LSD as it currently stands, and whether the economics stack up.

I once had an Auto Torque Biasing diff in a previous RWD car (made by Quaife, as it happens). It was a long time ago, but if memory serves, it felt quite snappy when traction did let go. Not sure whether an ATB or a true LSD upgrade would be the best route for a pure road hotrod. As said before, this car will not be going on track, so something hyper aggressive for smooth track surfaces is not going to be the right choice for Britains bumpy, oddly cambered public highway, not to mention I need something that if I get caught out in adverse weather (it's happened before...) it becomes an oversteering liability.

Having read a number of threads like this one it looks like ATB's have a significantly shorter expected life than a good LSD; granted this statement by Paul Geary (ex Guard) and Matt Monson (Guard, present day) was in reference to track use, but even so, with hopefully the torque numbers we'll be pushing through it, I don't want to be pulling the unit out for rebuilds that often!

Last edited by Spenny_b; 02-10-2019 at 01:07 PM..
Old 02-10-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR View Post
Hi Spencer, Iím glad the problem is finally targeted, maybe you put an unadapted oil in the gearbox, you need a specific oil for the gearboxes with the built-in autoblocker. I look forward to the rest of the news!
Whats an autoblocker?
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Old 02-10-2019, 02:06 PM
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Whats an autoblocker?
It is a system that is almost systematically integrated into our Porsche gearboxes, it serves for example to have more motor power when one of the motor wheels skate, the one that does not skate takes all the motor, I hope my rather simplistic explanation will satisfy you!
Old 02-10-2019, 02:19 PM
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Spencer, Chris some time ago had already advised Wavetrac, for my part on my 930 I have a G50/00 6v I still have in it the original autoblocker at 40%.
Old 02-10-2019, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR View Post
It is a system that is almost systematically integrated into our Porsche gearboxes, it serves for example to have more motor power when one of the motor wheels skate, the one that does not skate takes all the motor, I hope my rather simplistic explanation will satisfy you!
Ah, LSD.

I got a Guard torsen (Helical gear type) in my G50, not sure I like it. I think a clutch style would be better, but it depends on the intended purpose of the car.
I use standard Castrol syntrax 75w140, recommended by my builder, it has additives for LSD. You don't need to over complicate oil for a G50...
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931 -79 under total restoration...

Last edited by safe; 02-11-2019 at 01:00 AM..
Old 02-11-2019, 12:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1155 (permalink)
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Monday update....

An early start to drive the 150 miles up to Silverstone got underway at 5.20; I think my neighbours must hate me now, first of all scraping off the ice then firing the car up. About as subtle as a brick through a window.

Usual Monday morning traffic snarls approaching and circumnavigating London, but got up there just after 9.00 and got straight into the discussion with Matt and Matt. Jumping into the car to feel the difference was indeed a revelation; I was trying not to get my hopes up too much so I may have come across as slightly underwhelmed, but it certainly is a vast improvement. Any vibration that I was telling myself I was feeling was either:

a) normal
b) due to the donor RS transmission having a solid mount
c) running a single mass flywheel and
d) the fact that the RS 'box was only bolted up to the chassis using 2 of the 6 bolts on the nose crossmember bracket. (I was mistaken the other day, the transmission was always bolted up, not on a transmission jack). It's about 40-50mm shorter, but 1x bolt on each side of that crossbrace do line up with the chassis holes.
e) some refinement on the mapping. It was a little "fluffy", and that's fine, it is unfinished work.

The Plan - pt 1
So, this afternoon, Matt is going to deliver the transmission to the outfit they use for such things, across the way on the Silverstone circuit estate. Initial teardown by them, then a joint inspection and diagnosis.

We'll inspect the LSD (of course) and see where to go from there. Depending on what needs replacing will determine budget to spend on an LSD/ATB.

The Plan - pt 2
I've asked the guys to perform a healthcheck on the engine; throw the book at it and make sure everything's a-ok. To do this they're going to remove it from the chassis, do a leakdown test as well as removing the water cooling system. I'm not happy with it; I think there's insufficient coolant capacity, consequently it boils off and somehow disappears, emptying the header tank after any decent length run. You can hear it "kettling/syphoning" on engine shutdown. To get to the rear-most -8 water fitting on the CHRA needs either the turbo off or the engine out. It's a shame, as a LOT of effort (and money) went into that project. I'm going to keep all the parts and maybe revisit, fitting a lot larger radiator into the recess where a Carrera 4 front diff unit would normally mount, but that's a project for another day. Finally, the bloody exhaust is blowing again, on the 4-5-6 bank. Again, a job that's a lot easier with the engine removed (although not vital to do so, of course)

The Plan - pt 3
There are a few corrective and fiddly jobs to do. Firstly, Matt identified a fuel weep from the return line into the tank, in the front fuel pump recess. Of course very dangerous, so needs immediate attention; whether that length of hose that interfaces the -6 line to the push-on fitting of the tank isn't fuel rated, I don't know (it should be, of course, I fitted it thinking it was).

The front 044 pump sounds like it's on it's last legs (it was new, fitted at the same time as the engine bay 044 pump), so we'll swap that out.

Next up, the rigid clutch slave cylinder line that runs from the drivers side of the tunnel then across to the passenger (LH) side, right by the transmission mount. I replaced this line, old one was knackered looking. But already its starting to look not-great with the 3-4 removals we've done. It snags on the selector shaft. So, Matt's making up and swapping that out for a flexi line.

The dented inner faces of the driveshafts are getting sorted, some new grease retention shields are apparently very cheap. Packing the CV with fresh grease as well, after inspecting the joints themselves.

The Injector Dynamics injectors are going to go to Northampton Motorsport for ultrasonic cleaning. ID haven't been particularly helpful in their diagnosis of the flow difference across the 6 units, instantly blaming both the ASNU test rig and then contamination from my fuel system. No need to send them over there, would lose weeks and have to tolerate aggro with customs to ensure VAT/Import duties don't have to be paid each way. Did it a few years ago with Molles (TurboKraft) help for the cylinder re-machining - it's a ballache.

The Northampton Motorsports dyno has now been tentatively booked for the 25th Feb (full day) with the option of a further half day on Friday 1st March should it be needed.

So...very decent amount of progress, fingers crossed the wind is behind us and we can get it all back together for the 25th!

Last edited by Spenny_b; 02-11-2019 at 09:11 AM..
Old 02-11-2019, 09:09 AM
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Very satisfied for you Spencer!
Old 02-11-2019, 02:47 PM
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Wow, cue the theme from "633 Squadron" or "Where Eagles Dare". Forgive my non-sequitor, but this feels like inspirational news, so I'm thinking of some stirring film music...we had the cheap K-Tel album of WW2 movie themes back in Brissle, circa 1971. Although the mission in all these films was to "get Gerry", your car is a prime example of the Nazi Hot Rod, so maybe I should be imaging Ride of the Valkyries? Bottom line: das ist etwas gutte scheisse. Viel gluck. John
Old 02-12-2019, 09:59 AM
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Noisy 044 fuel pumps frequently speak to some obstruction on the intake side... debris? Worth checking before tossing it.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:15 PM
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Noisy 044 fuel pumps frequently speak to some obstruction on the intake side... debris? Worth checking before tossing it.
Thanks Preston, Iíll certainly get Matt the check it first, cheers for the hint.
Old 02-12-2019, 05:05 PM
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