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-   -   3.2ss for 78SC (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/901641-3-2ss-78sc.html)

al lkosmal 03-21-2016 06:47 AM

Take two wood 4x4s and spread them apart, wide enough to clear the alternator, but so they can still catch the housing. With the alternator side down, slam the housing down on the 4x4s and the weight of the alternator will cause it to come loose.

regards,
al

mreid 03-21-2016 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wprater (Post 9026822)
I had one hell of a time getting these circlips onto the pistons on one side. I'm worried about getting them installed while attached to the engine.

maybe these Wossner pins are exceptionally tough?! tips??!

Best tip ever! Get the circlip installation tool from our host. A godsend!

wprater 03-21-2016 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by al lkosmal (Post 9046464)
Take two wood 4x4s and spread them apart, wide enough to clear the alternator, but so they can still catch the housing. With the alternator side down, slam the housing down on the 4x4s and the weight of the alternator will cause it to come loose.

regards,
al

tried that yesterday after I popped off the alternator. it's either very stubborn or I'm too cautious with the housing...

wprater 03-21-2016 05:18 PM

the through bolts for the alternator were actually threaded into the housing! after removing them, I got the alternator out, but now it's all loose, so I need to take it to a shop for checkout and potential repair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wprater (Post 9046670)
tried that yesterday after I popped off the alternator. it's either very stubborn or I'm too cautious with the housing...


wprater 03-21-2016 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mreid (Post 9046487)
Best tip ever! Get the circlip installation tool from our host. A godsend!

oh, what a dream. takes less than one minute to get these in now!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/64xjg3m8c9...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

wprater 03-26-2016 12:20 PM

Cylinder Heads
 
Got my heads back from my machinist and Im looking forward to getting them installed. I need to verify the volume of each of them first, since they were originally CC'd to be varying in volume by as much as 1.2cc after the machining work.

I had the heads fly-cut 0.18mm, a new three-way valve job, twin plugged 12mm lower, mounting support holes for 993 knock bridge, and installed springs and new valves, seals and exhaust retainers.

Also had all of my rockers rebuilt/reground.

Using the Eibach dual valve springs (20444.212) height set to spec height: 36mm 1.411 to 1.421 and using Ti retainers.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1lfbbi1l7c...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nz359mja7r...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

And the cylinders which were bored to 98mm and plated.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zwb8wb5mra...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

wprater 03-26-2016 12:42 PM

Measuring the volume (cc) in my heads
 
There are at least a couple ways to measure the volume of your combustions chamber, I tried them both and decided to stick with the plexiglass disc over the head on the bench.

With this method I was able to measure and verify the volume in each of the heads after they were returned from my machinist. It's known that there are some differences in the volume of these heads, so I'll be grinding a bit of the plug's surface area to increase the volume in several of them.

It took me a few shots to get this disc creation correct. First I had got a 1/4", which is to too thin. You want something that is thick enough so you can see the cut where you made the drill hole as to see when the fluid is close to filling the chamber.

I ended up getting a 5" disc that was 1/2" in diameter and had it cut down to 4.25". This is smaller than the 112mm area that would would have fit perfectly in the mating surface of the head. However, I did not have the tools to cut this myself and the shop was able to get this all done for me for less then $10.

I spent many iterations trying to get the fill hole the right size. You don't want it too small, otherwise when the burette fills through the hole, if it hits the sides of the hole, it may back up and spill over.

I also made a breather hole, but that did not prove helpful at all, rather it made things more difficult where it would spill out from the tiny hole. I ended up making another disc without this breather.

I was using a 50cc burette with 0.1ml graduations it was very easy to control with IPA, but if you used something thicker like ATF, then it would drain at like 1 cc a minute! haha

Could have used some food coloring, but I was able to see for any seal leaks and watch the fluid rise with no issues.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7v3752fga1...jpg?dl=0&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x83hpn762q...jpg?dl=0&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rcszb7a3ef...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

wprater 03-26-2016 12:45 PM

CC results
 
The results are in! After all the test attempts, I was able to measure all the heads twice to be sure I could replicate my measurements. Pleased to see that most were spot on or within 0.1cc.

However, I will need to equalize these heads by massaging some material off from the spark plug area. Several are ~0.5cc off and I want them all to be equal since the build will be relatively high CR.

There is some discussion of my plans here
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/905043-altering-deck-height-varying-cc-heads.html

The current measurements are:
<pre>
1 2 3 4 5 6
1st 89.4 89.4 89.1 89.3 89.6 89.1
2nd 89.5 89.4 89.0 89.3 89.6 89.1
</pre>

wprater 03-30-2016 08:36 AM

CC heads are now eqaulized
 
Got the heads all equal (within 0.1cc) after lots of grinding, sanding, and re-measuring. Happy with the results and looking forward to getting the heads on today!

Here is the final table
<pre>
1 2 3 4 5 6
Final 89.7 89.6 89.6 89.6 89.6 89.7
</pre>
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqpewqwxgx...jpg?dl=0&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jvmdbiktvo...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

wprater 03-30-2016 08:37 AM

Currently Im debating on a deck height of ~0.75mm or ~1.00mm.

I'll likely go on the tighter side, as Ive been reading so much about the importance of a tight clearance. I'll be checking my valve to head clearance today as well, so if those seem too close, I can always go for the 1mm value by adding another base gasket.

Gordo2 03-30-2016 06:53 PM

Pistons
 
Nice work on the cc'ing - looks very familiar.

Didn't notice in any of your previous posts, but did you consider rounding off sharp edges on the tops of your pistons?

This seems to be recommended by some of the pro's (Henry) - it's supposed to reduce the likelihood of pre-ignition (sharp hot spot edges on the valve pockets) and improve flow.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/452068-sharp-edges-je-pistons.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/368320-jugs-slugs-confessions-je-piston-owner-3.html

I considered it, but decided since I went with the 9.5:1 pistons I decided mine didn't need it. Probably limited benefit since your's will be twin plugged as well.

Just another one of the hundreds of minor details to consider while you have it apart. And besides - it will give you another shot at using the Stromski tool ;)

Doing great stuff there - keep it up.

Gordo

IXjamesXI 03-31-2016 05:11 AM

from what I have read: more squish is better than not enough, but .75mm is getting into a different realm of engine building. everything I have read says do everything you can to hit 1mm to get good squish and adequate margin of safety between the piston and the head. the engine i am working on now my measurements range from 0.9-1.0, I had to buy a set of .5mm base gaskets to do so. disclaimer: i am not an expert.

wprater 03-31-2016 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IXjamesXI (Post 9060105)
from what I have read: more squish is better than not enough, but .75mm is getting into a different realm of engine building. everything I have read says do everything you can to hit 1mm to get good squish and adequate margin of safety between the piston and the head. the engine i am working on now my measurements range from 0.9-1.0, I had to buy a set of .5mm base gaskets to do so. disclaimer: i am not an expert.

Well, I don't think you necessarily want more squish or deck. But you should find something that will work well for your build and piston shape. I've exhausted myself reading on this topic and anywhere in the .030" - .039" is where I want to be for my deck height. This will allow for a tighter squish area that will taper out and create great turbulence and combustion.

Being at 0.35" would be better, but Im not sure they make a 0.30mm shim I can use?

Because of the rock in the bore, and the measurements I got on both sides were 0.74mm and 0.87mm gives me a deck of ~0.80 or 0.032". My squish are starts at around 1.1mm and tapers out a bit more until the piston top.

Here is a great post by Grady on the topic http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/149508-measuring-deck-height.html#post1178562

Your 0.9mm - 1.0mm should be fine. I just didn't want to go over the 1mm mark with the 0.5mm base gasket. I read custom gaskets are made in smaller increments, but I cannot seem to find them.

wprater 03-31-2016 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordo2 (Post 9059851)
Nice work on the cc'ing - looks very familiar.

Didn't notice in any of your previous posts, but did you consider rounding off sharp edges on the tops of your pistons?

This seems to be recommended by some of the pro's (Henry) - it's supposed to reduce the likelihood of pre-ignition (sharp hot spot edges on the valve pockets) and improve flow.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/452068-sharp-edges-je-pistons.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/368320-jugs-slugs-confessions-je-piston-owner-3.html

I considered it, but decided since I went with the 9.5:1 pistons I decided mine didn't need it. Probably limited benefit since your's will be twin plugged as well.

Just another one of the hundreds of minor details to consider while you have it apart. And besides - it will give you another shot at using the Stromski tool ;)

Doing great stuff there - keep it up.

Gordo

Hi Gordo,

Well, I've only got one (right) clip on so far.. was going to measure the valve-to-piston clearance today so be sure I've got adequate clearance with my set deck height. But now you got me thinking.

Great reads there, you're really making me think I should give this a shot! My piston domes have this flat area that's quite large, so getting the whole top beveled to the valve reliefs probably isn't practical wth my skills. But rounding off the relief edges would be!

My static compression is around 11.5:1 right now, so I need to be certain I don't have any area where detonation could occur and allowing for better turbulence should help with that. I have knock bridges and sensors ready to roll!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ijdjwyzs9...jpg?dl=0&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kuua41106t...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

IXjamesXI 03-31-2016 08:47 AM

By "more" squish I meant less clearance, I should have phrased that differently. Yes, I am quite happy with 1.0 mm. If you cant find the gaskets you want you could always have a machinist skim some material off the bottom mounting surface of the cylinders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wprater (Post 9060380)
Well, I don't think you necessarily want more squish or deck. But you should find something that will work well for your build and piston shape. I've exhausted myself reading on this topic and anywhere in the .030" - .039" is where I want to be for my deck height. This will allow for a tighter squish area that will taper out and create great turbulence and combustion.

Being at 0.35" would be better, but Im not sure they make a 0.30mm shim I can use?

Because of the rock in the bore, and the measurements I got on both sides were 0.74mm and 0.87mm gives me a deck of ~0.80 or 0.032". My squish are starts at around 1.1mm and tapers out a bit more until the piston top.

Here is a great post by Grady on the topic http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/149508-measuring-deck-height.html#post1178562

Your 0.9mm - 1.0mm should be fine. I just didn't want to go over the 1mm mark with the 0.5mm base gasket. I read custom gaskets are made in smaller increments, but I cannot seem to find them.


wprater 04-06-2016 03:29 PM

Radius the valve pockets
 
Decide to take Gordo's (and Kenick) advice; started to radius the sharp edges of the value pockets and the edge to the top of the piston.

Maybe this is overkill, but it's fun and I've already started.. here is a before and after pic of one of the Wossners.

Using blue scotch brite Roloc surfacing discs (where are very fine). And some buffing compound for medium polish aluminum.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e6by3b0lqz...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

wprater 04-06-2016 06:41 PM

Completed radiusing the edges of my Pistons and then polished them up a bit.

Here are some before and after photos

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e6by3b0lqz...jpg?dl=0&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3nh9a8k9yi...jpg?dl=0&raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/chfu79gype...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

wprater 04-12-2016 10:45 PM

Unboxing GE60 cams finally!
 
Nice to finally get these bad boys out! Ready for pre-assembly so. can time them and check piston-to-valve clearance.

I have some DC24 / 108 cams for sale too! They came with the parts bin I got and I'm not going to be using them.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/906939-fs-dc24-108-camshaft-4-journal.html#post9066502


Web Cam GE60
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8hd95kfic...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

wprater 04-12-2016 10:51 PM

Pre Assembly for piston-to-valve clearance check
 
It was really nice to see this engine start to look complete finally! So much research and tuning, measuring, and grinding..

Read many pieces of literature and articles on this clearance check. Most mention installing some lightweight springs to use when checking the clearance. I'm not sure why this is mentioned? I presume it's to make it easier to turn over or time the cams without lots of play?

I'm going to keep them assembled with the dual springs, and hope it's not too tough.

Anything to watch out for during the pre-assembly process?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/46y2b8ynfy...jpg?dl=0&raw=1

wprater 04-12-2016 10:54 PM

Chain got stuck behind a chain ramp
 
Forgot to mention that with all the tossing and turning the engine. Form measuring CR on engine to lots of deck height checked. The chains slopped around a lot and finally the left hand side get wedges behind a chain ramp. I could not get it out, so I had to remove one of the chain ramp bolts and free it up. Waiting on a new crush washer now, nice that was the only size I didn't seem to have on hand. :|


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