Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 Engine Rebuilding Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Uncertifiable!!!
 
Uwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,364
Garage
Rear Main Seal Replacement-Which is better?

My rear main Porsche brand seal (flywheel end) just started leaking on my new build. Bummer!!!
Our host sells several brands. There must be other brands out there as well. So, which one is better?
Cheers,
Johan
__________________
Living well is life's best revenge- George Herbert (1593-1633)
2006 C2S, A4 Quattro, the RST hot rod-http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/748639-evolution-carrera-rst.html
Old 10-14-2016, 07:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ken911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loxahatchee, florida
Posts: 2,708
the brown one
__________________
88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 10-14-2016, 07:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Uncertifiable!!!
 
Uwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,364
Garage
Both the Reinz and Elring seals appear to be "brown". Any idea which one you are referring to? Here is the link.
Pelican Parts - European Automotive Parts and Accessories - Porsche BMW Mercedes Volkswagen Audi Saab Volvo MINI
Thanks,
Johan
__________________
Living well is life's best revenge- George Herbert (1593-1633)
2006 C2S, A4 Quattro, the RST hot rod-http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/748639-evolution-carrera-rst.html
Old 10-14-2016, 09:47 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 6,992
I use Kaco seals. No Elring or V-R, ever.
__________________
Steve Weiner
Rennsport Systems
Portland Oregon
(503) 244-0990
porsche@rennsportsystems.com
www.rennsportsystems.com
Old 10-14-2016, 06:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Uncertifiable!!!
 
Uwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,364
Garage
Thanks Steve for your valued recommendation. Went on Kaco's web site- quite impressive. Kaco's it is!
Cheers,
Johan
__________________
Living well is life's best revenge- George Herbert (1593-1633)
2006 C2S, A4 Quattro, the RST hot rod-http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/748639-evolution-carrera-rst.html
Old 10-14-2016, 07:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,349
You are having some bad luck. Did the JB Weld on the case seam hold?
Old 10-15-2016, 05:03 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Uncertifiable!!!
 
Uwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,364
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by boosted79 View Post
You are having some bad luck. Did the JB Weld on the case seam hold?
The JB is holding nicely although now camouflaged by the oil from the rms. #>%*+#
johan
__________________
Living well is life's best revenge- George Herbert (1593-1633)
2006 C2S, A4 Quattro, the RST hot rod-http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/748639-evolution-carrera-rst.html
Old 10-15-2016, 11:53 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Olsen911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 250
Garage
Kaco seal.

Thanks.

I can't find the Kaco seal for the 66mm. Crank.?

Thanks - Cheers - Olsen911 - Tommy Olsen
__________________
I will not demonstrate it, I will race it. Juan Manuel Fangio
Old 10-22-2016, 03:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
E Sully's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 2,998
Garage
I hear a lot of bashing of Victor Reinz in the forum. I used the Victor Reinz gasket set from our host when I rebuilt my 3.2 a few years back. I have had no issues with their sealing. Initially I had a leak at the rear main seal, but it was due to setting the seal too deep. I replaced it with another Victor Reinz seal, this time set slightly shallower, and it does not leak.
Perhaps the other brands are "better" but I believe many of the issues are from the installation as opposed to the Victor Reinz seals lack of quality.
__________________
Ed
1973.5 T
Old 10-22-2016, 02:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Try not, Do or Do not
 
Henry Schmidt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fallbrook, Ca. 92028
Posts: 5,971
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by E Sully View Post
I hear a lot of bashing of Victor Reinz in the forum. I used the Victor Reinz gasket set from our host when I rebuilt my 3.2 a few years back. I have had no issues with their sealing. Initially I had a leak at the rear main seal, but it was due to setting the seal too deep. I replaced it with another Victor Reinz seal, this time set slightly shallower, and it does not leak.
Perhaps the other brands are "better" but I believe many of the issues are from the installation as opposed to the Victor Reinz seals lack of quality.
Over the years we've had the opportunity to test many different manufacturers of almost everything 911 engine related and I can tell you from experience that many of the Victor Reintz products are TRULY inferior.
We use enough products to actually do side by side comparisons.
In some, very few instances the products are similar but the majority of VR products are what we consider, unusable.
There are times, the last time was a few months ago, when we find ourselves desperate for a gasket or two, (the last was 3.0 head gaskets) and we picked up a few from a local shop. Upon inspection, it was determined that the VR they supplied were crap. We elected to wait a few days in order the get a quality product.
A friend built a 2.4 S engine for a very expensive show car, most of you probably heard about this record setting sale and with a few hundred miles the engine was back to his shop with leaking heads. Upon inspection, (simple measuring) we determined that his issue was over sized CE rings. That's right, VR rings were manufactured way too thick......
Oil leaks suck so why take a chance with marginal products?
For crank seals front and rear we use Elring or Kaco depending on the fit requirements.
__________________
Henry Schmidt
SUPERTEC PERFORMANCE
Ph: 760-728-3062
Email: supertec1@earthlink.net
Old 10-22-2016, 04:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
E Sully's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 2,998
Garage
Henry, I have no doubt about your opinion, and I am not endorsing VR products. I have rebuilt quite a few engines, but only 2 were Porsche, so I would never compare my knowledge to yours. I trust your experience.
Recently I was asked by a friend to check out a Model A engine he had purchased. He was told it was just rebuilt by someone with a a lot of experience and was ready to run. Top quality parts were used. I found the main bearing clearance was too tight, and would have ruined an otherwise nice engine if run as is.
I was successful with VR on my 3.2 and 2.4 rebuilds, but in the future I will use other brands from reading recommendations of more experienced. Interesting to note is your preference for Kaco and Elring, and Steve's "I use Kaco seals. No Elring or V-R, ever."
My point is that it is important to make sure that proper assembly and clearance checks are done. It is easy to blame failure on a part, but a failure can occur even with quality parts if not installed correctly.
__________________
Ed
1973.5 T
Old 10-24-2016, 06:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Try not, Do or Do not
 
Henry Schmidt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fallbrook, Ca. 92028
Posts: 5,971
Garage
My point really isn't good, better, best or will it work?
My point is always, what are your/our best chances of success.
I don't care what it costs or what "band" it is.
I always try to use a part or technique that has demonstrated that "best chance".
Of course, attention to detail will generally yield the best results but if a lack of experience leaves someone with less opertunity to compare parts quality, the best technique in the world, can still generate a "do over".
From my point of view, that is a failure I can't afford.
As I stated, Kaco or Elring and the reason is that Kaco doesn't always produce the gasket or seal I need. I'm always more concerned with the appropriate application than band. If Victor Reintz made the only product for a certain application, I would use it. Then look to find someone who would produce what we need.
That's how the whole "Head Stud" process started.
No one made a head stud that fit our requirements, so we enlisted the advice of experts and proceeded to fill the product void we encountered.
Since then we have produced a plethora of products that we couldn't find anywhere else.
In some cases, someone else started producing an equal or better product and at that point we stopped producing ours.
We want to build the best engine we can (as dictated by the build sheet) and only build the parts we need to do just that.
__________________
Henry Schmidt
SUPERTEC PERFORMANCE
Ph: 760-728-3062
Email: supertec1@earthlink.net

Last edited by Henry Schmidt; 10-24-2016 at 08:09 AM..
Old 10-24-2016, 08:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Uncertifiable!!!
 
Uwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,364
Garage
I'm resurrecting and updating this thread.
But first a correction to my original post. My leaking RMS was not "Porsche brand" but rather made by Victor-Reinz.

Here is what I thought was the only culprit. Note how the inner lip is curling out.


After seal removal and cleaning, I also noted that it is likely that there is also a leak originating at the lower seam.


I got a replacement Kaco seal from our host but it is black acrylic rubber and not the all brown all Viton FPM which I understand is the preferred seal according to fellow Pelican Henry Schmidt.

So my questions to the brain trust are:
1. With what do I seal the seam gap outer (vertical) edge which remains exposed after installation of a new seal?
2. Should I spring for the Kaco brown all Viton FPM.
3. Looking at the first pic, did I initially correctly place the seal. It's about .5mm in from the outer (vertical) edge.

Thanks in advance.
Johan
__________________
Living well is life's best revenge- George Herbert (1593-1633)
2006 C2S, A4 Quattro, the RST hot rod-http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/748639-evolution-carrera-rst.html

Last edited by Uwon; 02-22-2017 at 04:14 PM..
Old 02-22-2017, 11:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Member 911 Anonymous
 
DRACO A5OG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes
Posts: 14,289
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to DRACO A5OG
Hey Johan,

Sorry to read your troubles.

Just my opinion:

1. There is really nothing you can do about that seam, because the prior rebuild probably did not insure case was straight before mating the surfaces or worse let the sealant to go bad. Sorry.

2. The Brown Kaco seems to work better but it will not help if it is leaking from the above seam.

3. Too deep, it supposed to be 0.5M above the ring.

My 2 cents.
__________________
'85 Carrera Targa
Factory Marble Grey/Black * Turbo Tail * 930 Steering Wheel* Sport Seats * 17" Fuchs (r) * 3.4 * 964 Cams * 915 * LSD * Factory SS * Turbo Tie Rods * Bilsteins * Euro Pre-Muff * SW Chip on 4K DME * NGK * Sienes GSK * Targa Body Brace
PCA/POC
Old 02-22-2017, 05:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 8,726
You know what, my RMS leaked crazy too ultimately taking out the clutch.

VR seal...
Old 02-22-2017, 07:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Uncertifiable!!!
 
Uwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,364
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG View Post
Hey Johan,

Sorry to read your troubles.

Just my opinion:

1. There is really nothing you can do about that seam, because the prior rebuild probably did not insure case was straight before mating the surfaces or worse let the sealant to go bad. Sorry.

2. The Brown Kaco seems to work better but it will not help if it is leaking from the above seam.

3. Too deep, it supposed to be 0.5M above the ring.

My 2 cents.
DRACO,
1. the case halfs are straight and are mated properly. The problem is that sealant was not brought out all the way into the outer lip. Still pontificating what I should use to plug.
2. Yep, Brown Kaco it's going to be. Hope I can get it locally.
3. So to be clear, I should have placed it .5mm OUT from the vertical face of the lip. Correct?
Thanks for your help.
Johan
__________________
Living well is life's best revenge- George Herbert (1593-1633)
2006 C2S, A4 Quattro, the RST hot rod-http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/748639-evolution-carrera-rst.html
Old 02-23-2017, 06:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Try not, Do or Do not
 
Henry Schmidt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fallbrook, Ca. 92028
Posts: 5,971
Garage
If i remember correctly, LocTite makes a "wicking " product that might help with this issue.
Of course getting it thoroughly clean will be the challenge. Acetone in a pressure sprayer might be an option.
Good luck
__________________
Henry Schmidt
SUPERTEC PERFORMANCE
Ph: 760-728-3062
Email: supertec1@earthlink.net
Old 02-23-2017, 09:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,231
I think your problem may be more to do with the case as the seal material will only affect longevity.

Seal Materials and their speed ratings are interesting and are important.

Assuming a P-V of around 1 and a 65mm diameter shaft the maximum running speeds for the various materials that are available should be as follows:

Nitrile (NBR) 2750rpm - at higher speeds the seal will run hot and wear very quickly.

Acrylic Rubber (ACM) 4750rpm again higher speeds will cause rapid wear.

Viton (FKM/FPM) 8500rpm - I would consider this to be the only suitable seal material for this duty.

The tension in the lip is also important and the lack of radial compression on the body of the seal is probably the main culprit.

The seal has the nominal dimensions of 65 x 85 x 10 and the diameter of the housing needs to be 85mm with an H8 tolerance.

If the bore is larger or is not concentric to the shaft you may well experience problems and it looks as if the seal doesn't locate correctly on the shaft.

If the bore in the case isn't round and is our of tolerance I am not sure you will ever solve the problem without some machining work.

I feel you may have to split the case measure the bore and then decide the course of action.

Last edited by chris_seven; 02-23-2017 at 10:56 AM..
Old 02-23-2017, 09:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Member 911 Anonymous
 
DRACO A5OG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes
Posts: 14,289
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to DRACO A5OG
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uwon View Post
DRACO,
1. the case halfs are straight and are mated properly. The problem is that sealant was not brought out all the way into the outer lip. Still pontificating what I should use to plug.
2. Yep, Brown Kaco it's going to be. Hope I can get it locally.
3. So to be clear, I should have placed it .5mm OUT from the vertical face of the lip. Correct?
Thanks for your help.
Johan
Hey Johan,

Oh geez, okay.

1. As you might know if 574 was used by PO/builder, any protruding/exposed 574 would desolve away. Gosh, I hope I am making sense here. I like Master Henry's suggestion above. Try that.

2. Good :-) I am sure you can find it.

3. Yes, lip of the case.

Jim
__________________
'85 Carrera Targa
Factory Marble Grey/Black * Turbo Tail * 930 Steering Wheel* Sport Seats * 17" Fuchs (r) * 3.4 * 964 Cams * 915 * LSD * Factory SS * Turbo Tie Rods * Bilsteins * Euro Pre-Muff * SW Chip on 4K DME * NGK * Sienes GSK * Targa Body Brace
PCA/POC

Last edited by DRACO A5OG; 02-23-2017 at 11:47 AM..
Old 02-23-2017, 11:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
KTL KTL is offline
Schleprock
 
KTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Frankfort IL USA
Posts: 15,874
Send a message via Yahoo to KTL
I thought years ago the "hot setup" that Wrightwood touted as the best seal is the black and brown. Black and brown is Elring-Klinger. Has that changed? I haven't bought a Wrightwood gasket kit in a while.
__________________
Kevin L
Present: '86 Carrera, '79 911SC widebody conversion rolling racecar shell
Past: '87 Carrera
Old 02-24-2017, 03:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:46 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.