Mahle vs JE

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

It wouldn't be hard for JE to figure out what Mahle's alloy is. I bet Mahle uses a variety of alloys. Some of their pistons are cast and some are forged. That alone would require different alloys.

In fact "The majority of Mahle forged PowerPak kits are made with 4032" Which Mahle Aluminum Alloy Piston Is Right For Your Engine?- Modified Mustangs & Fords
And Mahle also uses 2618 at least for American motors.....

Mahle uses several different alloys. Air-cooled pistons are made from Mahle's proprietary material that nobody has been able to figure out precisely what it is and how they make it.,

Several years ago, I gave these things to both Alcoa and Reynolds and both told me they could not accurately replicate that stuff. The closest is 4032 (and its not close at all).

[Trackrash]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

Mahle uses several different alloys. Air-cooled pistons are made from Mahle's proprietary material that nobody has been able to figure out precisely what it is and how they make it.,

Several years ago, I gave these things to both Alcoa and Reynolds and both told me they could not accurately replicate that stuff. The closest is 4032 (and its not close at all).

I am assuming you are talking about Mahle' s forged pistons. So Mahle creates their own alloy? Wow.

[Tippy]

What a bummer. Struggling how they couldn't figure the alloy?

[lvporschepilot]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

Mahle uses several different alloys. Air-cooled pistons are made from Mahle's proprietary material that nobody has been able to figure out precisely what it is and how they make it.,

Several years ago, I gave these things to both Alcoa and Reynolds and both told me they could not accurately replicate that stuff. The closest is 4032 (and its not close at all).

Sorry but that if Mahle is telling you that then it's total BS. They buy their aluminum the same silly way everyone else, including formula 1 engine manufacturers do, which is mostly from Alcoa. There is no magic proprietary aluminum they nor anyone else are using that F1 hasn't figured out or are using already, which they're mostly not as everyone is using 2618 or in MB and Ferrari's case it is said they are using a new 3d printed steel piston of sorts. Back away from that high-brow salesman kool-aid they're pushing.

[Trackrash]

3-D printed steel pistons, amazing. Steel honeycomb! Wow.

Still, it is my understanding that cast and forged pistons are not the same alloy. SC and Carrera pistons are cast, correct. But 2,7 RS pistons and Mahle motorsport pistons are forged. These can't be the same alloy, according to what I have read.

[manbridge 74]

The alloy might be well known but the methods used to construct them would be different.

Where’s our resident metallurgist? He always has good info at times like this.

[JFairman]

930 and 911 turbo Mahle pistons are also forged.
That's what I've heard anyway.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

I am assuming you are talking about Mahle' s forged pistons. So Mahle creates their own alloy? Wow.

They have used their own proprietary forged alloys (in air-cooled engines) since 1966 that I'm personally aware of. Might have been before then, however I don't know.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by lvporschepilot

Sorry but that if Mahle is telling you that then it's total BS. They buy their aluminum the same silly way everyone else, including formula 1 engine manufacturers do, which is mostly from Alcoa. There is no magic proprietary aluminum they nor anyone else are using that F1 hasn't figured out or are using already, which they're mostly not as everyone is using 2618 or in MB and Ferrari's case it is said they are using a new 3d printed steel piston of sorts. Back away from that high-brow salesman kool-aid they're pushing.

Mahle people showed me this in 1966 when I first visited Europe: 2618/4032 didn't exist back then.

You can call BS all you wish, but I was there Sir.

[lvporschepilot]

It is indeed total BS they sold you on. 2618 and 4032 have been around since the 30s. 2618 was invented by Rolls Royce and I forget who did 4032, I’m sure it’s out there somewhere. Mahle is just being Mahle, or ‘extremely German’ as I like to call it sometimes in that they enjoy saying anything that doesn’t originate from Germany is shameful to be used. I deal with it in the ferrari world with mechanics there all the time. Meanwhile they’re outsourcing to Asia/turkey/Poland like everyone else. Total and complete high horse BS.

[Tippy]

I see two potential fallacies here. What if Mahle uses their own composition? Would it NOT be 2618 or 4032 anymore if another element was added? Not sure, totally ignorant here. Second, why couldn't you analyze the shavings on an analyzer? We have one at work. I might try to shave some material off a piston and see.

[Tippy]

Bruker makes a handheld analyzer that claims to identify alloys in 3 seconds and a complete chemical analysis in 5 seconds non-destructive.

[manbridge 74]

Does it tell what temperature the alloy was at when the forge hammered down?

I bet the method of manufacture is more important than the alloy itself.

[lvporschepilot]

Ponder the issue economically, as I’m 100% certain any company making anything is. Why on earth would a manufacturer currently making air-cooled pistons, which is an old tech with low volume, spend the capital on some proprietary material or process which is highly doubtful to be superior to 4032 or 2618. It’s makes zero economic sense. Mahle diesel pistons are a bit different, but that is a totally different concept. With Mahle groaning about making air cooled stuff anyway, they are not doing anything special.

Some years ago Ted Rutlands (yes, of Rutlands ferrari Parts, may he rip) approached ZF to make a run of ferrari synchros. ZF Germany promptly and curtly advised us the min order was $100k thinking that would make us go away. Ted being Ted quickly requested who the check needed to be made to. Long story longer, we had to fight tooth and nail AFTER they took out $100k and contact the state department to get them to make the run.

Point is, companies like Mahle and ZF could care less about some measly under 7 figures order so I promise you they are doing nothing all that special when they are made.

[txhokie4life]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

I find it interesting and annoying that Mahle sells pistons for American V8s but not air cooled Porsches? Unless of course you get the cylinder set.

I have a perfectly good set of cylinders so why can't I get Mahle pistons only?

I bought a set of Mahle RSR 3.8L 11.5:1 endurance pistons for my race build last winter.

Bought them from EBS and were drop shipped from Mahle. EBS had my Mahle cylinders reconditioned at the same time.

Still in engine assembly phase.

Mike

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by Tippy

I see two potential fallacies here. What if Mahle uses their own composition? Would it NOT be 2618 or 4032 anymore if another element was added? Not sure, totally ignorant here. Second, why couldn't you analyze the shavings on an analyzer? We have one at work. I might try to shave some material off a piston and see.

Alcoa did analyze the Mahle piston sample I gave them.

I was told they didn't know how to make that particular low-expansion, high silicon alloy and being metallurgists, took them at their word. The people I dealt with were certainly not stupid.

[lvporschepilot]

It probably had too many impurities to measure with a high degree of certainty haha. All in good fun folks.

Now who here wants to know how many factories in China Mahle have and just how long they’ve been established there.

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

Alcoa did analyze the Mahle piston sample I gave them.

I was told they didn't know how to make that particular low-expansion, high silicon alloy and being metallurgists, took them at their word. The people I dealt with were certainly not stupid.

More explanation would be needed. I've seen elements not make sense either we've scratched our heads over.

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by lvporschepilot

It probably had too many impurities to measure with a high degree of certainty haha. All in good fun folks.

Now who here wants to know how many factories in China Mahle have and just how long they’ve been established there.

Well, how many?? Enquiring minds want to know... 😂

[lvporschepilot]

Everyone in Europe has been doing business in china since at least the 80s, but then started buying and rebranding existing factories or building their own factories since the 90s and probably earlier than that for others. Mahle has a min of 15 factories there as well as several in India and Thailand. When I say everyone is there, I mean everyone. Ferrari even helped magnetti marelli set up shop there.