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Puny Bird
 
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Port Hope (near Toronto) On, Canada
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This sucks new WEB cam has a big pit starting

I have my new engine out to do some housekeeping, post break-in valve adjustment, some carb fine tuning etc. get the crank to #1TDC and I see below.
More than a big pit, huge, like the surface is flaking off. IIRC these are welded cams.

Only about 1000 miles on full custom rebuild. 3.0 weber twinplug, 10.1 CR mahles, eibach sport springs. Spent a lot of money and time doing things right.

Don't think WEB will do anything for me, based on what I read here, since they didn't sell them to me and several years have passed. Cams are 120/104, NIB, but bought off of a member. Most of the parkerizing is still on the cams.
Really sucks to see this, I've bought hundreds of cams made by them, making me do a rethink on that.

Has anyone used DR cams lately? He had some issues with delays a while back, what is he like now?


__________________
'74 Porsche 914, 3.0/6
'67 Bug, 2600cc T4
'67 Bus, 2.0 T1
Not putting miles on your car is like not having sex with your girlfriend, so she'll be more desirable to her next boyfriend.

Last edited by Mark Henry; 05-04-2018 at 10:10 AM..
Old 05-04-2018, 10:04 AM
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Kartoffelkopf
 
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Crikey....I'd still be tempted to speak to them Mark; sounds like you've been a loyal and consistent customer of theirs in the past; you gotta think they'd want to help you on this, surely it's nothing that you or any owner could do to cause it, it's a manufacturing issue, Shirley?
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1993 (MY92) 964 Turbo 3.3 - Horizon Blue - Follow my 964 Turbo project here... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/626572-964-3-3-turbo-efi-conversion-using-syvecs-life-racing-engine-management.html
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Old 05-04-2018, 12:39 PM
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KTL KTL is offline
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Mark,

I'd agree Web won't provide any warranty service since the cam is used, despite being new in the box for a number of years, and not your original ownership. But I can tell you that if you did send it to them for repair, they'd do it right and turn it around very quickly for you. I sent them a set of core cams for hardwelding (incidentally same 120/104 profile as yours) and they had them back to me in IL in just over two weeks time. Then not long after when I hosed the engine and scored the cam bearings (the hardwelded lobes were unharmed by the bearing debris) they subcontracted the bearing repair to someone else and got them back to me in just under three weeks time.

I think DR has gotten things ironed out with lead times. I sent him some SC/Carrera cams awhile back for regrind to 964 and he turned them around back in my hands in just under three weeks. That's really good considering ground shipping from the midwest to west coast is 4-5 days
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:10 PM
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Puny Bird
 
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I'll talk to them, see how much the repair will cost.
I have to check all the lobes, I was so upset I just stuck the covers back on.

These were 964 cores that I converted to early sprockets, had the nose welded and ground, then I cut the woodruff key slot, cut off the PS and oil pump drives.
I have a lot of work into them.
Turning out to be no bargain.

The engine was running so nice and our short driving season has started, damn.
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'74 Porsche 914, 3.0/6
'67 Bug, 2600cc T4
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Not putting miles on your car is like not having sex with your girlfriend, so she'll be more desirable to her next boyfriend.
Old 05-04-2018, 01:26 PM
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Rocket Scientist
 
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Did you reuse your rocker arms as-is when you inserted these cams into the engine? How about the valve spring pressures, stock, or higher than stock?

Pitting is not necessarily a manufacturing defect.

Not sticking up for Web Cams here. I don’t use them.
Old 05-04-2018, 01:32 PM
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Puny Bird
 
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The eibach sport springs are heavier than stock, but not by a huge amount, I've built 930 engines using xtreme heads that had way higher pressures.

Rebuilt rockers on perfect cores, polished pads, full tower cleaning, pulled the bars tapped and plugged, not running oil restrictors.
Using Delo 400 15w40
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'74 Porsche 914, 3.0/6
'67 Bug, 2600cc T4
'67 Bus, 2.0 T1
Not putting miles on your car is like not having sex with your girlfriend, so she'll be more desirable to her next boyfriend.

Last edited by Mark Henry; 05-04-2018 at 01:51 PM..
Old 05-04-2018, 01:48 PM
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Iím sure it was just a bad weld contaminated. Even if they donít pony up, it shouldnít cost much to repair one lobe by them or JD
Old 05-04-2018, 02:43 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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BTW, jpnovak and I just had ours done and the TAT wasnít too bad
Old 05-04-2018, 02:44 PM
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that looks like rocker arm face issues....Did you have the rocker arms rebuilt?
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:12 PM
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I’m into 4 weeks waiting on billet cams from DR right now.
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'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0 Turbodiesel (yes they make one)
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Old 05-05-2018, 03:14 AM
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KTL KTL is offline
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Which formula of Delo 400? The current SDE stuff isn’t as full of the typical anti wear stuff when compared to the previous LE version. I’m no oil nerd so I may be wrong on this. But I recall some of the other dudes here that were LE fans are no longer a fan of the SDE for their 911 usage
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Old 05-05-2018, 03:34 AM
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From Weber Cam's website at last look, they recommend using new or their refurbished and finished rocker arms with their hard-welded cams. The thickness of the hardened wear surface on factory rockers can be reduced by regrinding.

Sherwood
Old 05-05-2018, 08:55 AM
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Unfortunately, these occurrences do happen.

A couple of points to consider.

Firstly, the hard material that has been removed from the lobe has been circulated around the engine internals suspended in the oil. Bearing clearances are in the thousands and the debris is usually a lot bigger. Crank journals, cylinder walls all get damaged from this junk. Maybe the damage is minor at present but left and hoped it doesn’t get any worse is not the best way forward. I promise you, this stuff will keep you honest. My advice is to open the engine and check. This is a serious failure that can cause a lot of expensive damage to repair and require replacing costly parts.

What the cause of the failure was, is difficult to say looking at the photos. “Bedding in” the cams on the first start up is extremely important. These engines should be started and held above 2000 RPM for at least 15 – 25 mins so the oil pressure is high enough to lubricate the wearing surfaces.

The cams get lubed via small holes in the tubes within the cam housings. In my opinion, this is an area that needs careful consideration when rebuilding an engine.

The rocker face is another really important area to consider. Was it reground and was it done correctly? Did it have any taper, was the surface hardness compromised? Was the cam lobe ground correctly? Is the lobe design geometry correct, does it have excessive contact stresses? The other lobes can tell what is going on. Finally, as it has been suggested, was the welding done correctly. I’m not a big fan of welded cams. The incompatibility between the rocker face and the lobe is never ideal.

We add an additional anti friction coating to both the lobes and the rocker faces. The rocker faces are measured for correct geometry as are the cams, then both are micro polished then coated. This helps lower the heat generated by the sliding friction, which increases with spring pressures and valve lift.

Just some things to consider.
Old 05-05-2018, 10:37 AM
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I know I’ve said this before so my apologies for repeating. But I don’t get why people want to run diesel oil in a 911 engine. Especially oil formulated for modern diesels that run B20 fuel, have SCR and other particulate emissions requirements. First of all, a diesel never sees more than 4500 rpm and oils are formulated to meet shear stresses of high boost and torque at very low rpms and give away the 4500+ properties. My Jeep turbodiesel runs 25 lbs boost as low as 1800 rpm, but is redlined at 4000. Shell Rotella T6 5W40 is the only approved oil for this engine, the old 5W30 was harming emissions components. This oil is formulated for a VERY specific type of vehicle. When I met a Shell engineer a couple years ago waiting for a flight I asked about their oil in higher rpm applications. He said the cling strength of the Rotella was designed for 5000 or less, but was fortified the very high bearing loads with lots of boost at 2000 rpm in diesel applications. I specifically asked about use in a 911 engine at say 7000 rpm and he said it’s never been designed for that and likely would fling off rotating components at those engine speeds. I’m not an oil engineer, just an old mechanical engineer who likes to research....drives my wife nuts some days.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:11 AM
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Puny Bird
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTL View Post
Which formula of Delo 400? The current SDE stuff isn’t as full of the typical anti wear stuff when compared to the previous LE version. I’m no oil nerd so I may be wrong on this. But I recall some of the other dudes here that were LE fans are no longer a fan of the SDE for their 911 usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by BURN-BROS View Post
that looks like rocker arm face issues....Did you have the rocker arms rebuilt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Henry View Post

Rebuilt rockers on perfect cores, polished pads, full tower cleaning, pulled the bars tapped and plugged, not running oil restrictors.
Using Delo 400 15w40
Rebuilt rockers on perfect cores, new bushings, polished pads, barely had to touch the pads, full tower cleaning, pulled the bars (and of course cleaned them) tapped and plugged, not running oil restrictors.
Using Delo 400 15w40 LE

I won't break in an engine on anything but dino. Didn't hit above 6k many times during breakin if it matters.
Was thinking about motul or lubro moly as I get it at dealer cost.
__________________
'74 Porsche 914, 3.0/6
'67 Bug, 2600cc T4
'67 Bus, 2.0 T1
Not putting miles on your car is like not having sex with your girlfriend, so she'll be more desirable to her next boyfriend.

Last edited by Mark Henry; 05-05-2018 at 05:37 PM..
Old 05-05-2018, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Henry View Post
Rebuilt rockers on perfect cores, new bushings, polished pads, barely had to touch the pads, full tower cleaning, pulled the bars (and of course cleaned them) tapped and plugged, not running oil restrictors.
Using Delo 400 15w40 LE

I won't break in an engine on anything but dino. Didn't hit above 6k many times during breakin if it matters.
Was thinking about motul or lubro moly as I get it at dealer cost.
Bummer Mark I know you put a lot of work into that motor and its not like you don't know what you are doing,is that the only bad lobe ?.

Having to pull a new build like that down is a PITA,good luck and hope you find little else wrong,I have checked my cam lobes and checked for rocker pin migration with my constant battle to seal leaking valve covers...I'am winning that battle as I have turbo covers for the exhaust side,old magnesium isn't for ever .
I'am running a full zinc Penrite 20/60 vintage (replacement for 20/50) and been real happy so far,great oil pressure hot and cold,you guys are lucky over there oil is really expensive here I pay $74nzd for a 5 L pack and my motor takes 2.
Trust you will get it sorted ,cheers.
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Old 05-05-2018, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Henry View Post
Rebuilt rockers on perfect cores, new bushings, polished pads, barely had to touch the pads, full tower cleaning, pulled the bars (and of course cleaned them) tapped and plugged, not running oil restrictors.
Using Delo 400 15w40 LE

I won't break in an engine on anything but dino. Didn't hit above 6k many times during breakin if it matters.
Was thinking about motul or lubro moly as I get it at dealer cost.
Who did the rebuild?
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Burnham Performance
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:30 AM
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Puny Bird
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BURN-BROS View Post
Who did the rebuild?
Me, I own a engine shop, Flatnines, 28 years doing aircooled in Canada.
I also build 996/7 engines, IMS service, I'm an LN dealer.

Machining, twinplug, heads, clutch adaptor and TIG welding, DFL and ceramic coatings, trans building, etc all in-house.
I farm out a few things like balancing, crank grinding and rods.
I also make 75-80% of my own tooling, plus built, wired and HVAC the shop I'm in

The cams made on 964 cores modified for 901 sprockets, I farmed out the submerged welding and grinding, but I cut in the woodruff keys and cut off the drives.

Here's the build sheet.
Engine build sheet for 3.0 1974 914 six conversion
Engine 3.0L, 70.4mm X 95mm, 10.1: 1 CR

Case, 1979, 3.0, serial # *6399XXX, 930/13, 930.101.104.4R,
Supertec head studs
Crank, stock, std/std, polished and magnafluxed, converted to CW distributor drive gear
Rods, stock, rebuilt big and small end, new bushings, ARP bolts
Flywheel stock, minor lightning with custom 914-901 adapter ring, CSP 228mm bus HD pressure plate
Full engine balance to 1g
Main bearings, new glyco, DFL (Dry Film Lube) coated
#8 Main bearing, original Porsche, DFL coated
Rod bearings, new glyco, DFL coated
Intermediate shaft bearings, new Porsche, DFL coated
Gasket set, new nose and rear main seal, Supertec sealant kit
Pump, stock, blueprint, interior DFL coated, tested piston squirters.
Pistons, Mahle, new, custom 3.0 RSR style tops, DFL coated skirts, ceramic coated tops, Goetze rings
Cylinders, stock 3.0 nickasil, replated Milenium/LN engineering, stock gaskets, .025mm base gasket
Heads, 3.0 big port, minor port work, twin plug, timeserts in exhaust studs, ceramic coated chambers and exhaust ports
Valves, stock size, exhaust new TRW sodium, intake new AE
Valve springs, Eibach sport, retainers early stock, keepers stock modified
Cams, WEB-CAM, 120/104, set at 5.2mm/.10 lash, 964 cores modified to 901 spec
Towers, spray bars R&R, tapped and cleaned, rockers resurfaced, RSR rocker shaft seals
Turbo valve covers, milled fins for clearance.
Chains, new IWIS, new cam sprockets, keys and pins
Tensioners, hydraulic, no fail modification
906 style cylinder cooling deflectors, stainless steel
Cooler, stock, 3.0, modified for 914

Oil tank, DWD
Oil, Brad Penn break in, Delo400 15w40 LE
Custom made oil lines with EZ drain
Breather custom Tig welded, properly vented to case and carbs, 1/4" drain petcock

Carburetors, Weber 40mm IDA, rebuilt, new carb kits, 34mm venturis, Ported stock manifolds, 3/8" custom phenolic spacers.
K&N filters and rain hats, Weber linkage, upgraded links
Tach controlled pump shut off relay
PMO regulator

Distributor, PMS/Jarvis, CW,
Plug wires custom labled twin plug, Patrick Motorsports
Ignition, MSD 6AL, twin MSD high vibration coils, custom bracket mount
Spark plugs, NGK BPR5ES (BPR6ES also available for tuning)
Custom plug and play engine harness and modified heat duct

Headers, 914, 1-1/2” MSDS, ceramic coated
WMS O2 meter, wideband

Transmission
914, 901, side shift rebuilt, using good used parts
Gearing, custom, A,F,O,X, HB (flipped)
Stub axles 108mm 911/901
Spare 2nd rebuilt transmission with stock 914/4 gearing

Axles, Sway-Away custom, part# 2420,
CV, Lobro, G50 108mm modified to '1972-1974 spec grease seals, Swepco 101
Rear hubs and stubs, 5-bolt Porsche,1972 911, new bearings
__________________
'74 Porsche 914, 3.0/6
'67 Bug, 2600cc T4
'67 Bus, 2.0 T1
Not putting miles on your car is like not having sex with your girlfriend, so she'll be more desirable to her next boyfriend.

Last edited by Mark Henry; 05-06-2018 at 01:20 PM..
Old 05-06-2018, 01:10 PM
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Puny Bird
 
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'74 Porsche 914, 3.0/6
'67 Bug, 2600cc T4
'67 Bus, 2.0 T1
Not putting miles on your car is like not having sex with your girlfriend, so she'll be more desirable to her next boyfriend.
Old 05-06-2018, 01:27 PM
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Nice build. I was referring to the rocker arms. After bush were the pads ground? and then polished?
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Burnham Performance
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805-240-6931
http://www.burnhamperformance.com
Old 05-06-2018, 01:33 PM
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