The greatest puzzle (R12S idle) - Page 3

peter f · 06-28-2010, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blkduc1

Sounds like what mine does, when it does it, is very similar.

ANd you can feel it start to idle rough, like one cylinder starts to miss, or it gets weak or something. Could the action of the two spark plugs per cylinder working together somehow be affecting the smoothness of idle?

Sure would like to find the solution. ... Could it actually be the fuel pump, as that previous post suggests?

Keep us posted, Peter f.
Perhaps someone here could run the same graphs you did on a flawless bike? Would that be comparable?
dp

Plugs are new (2 weeks old), and coils work(?) or dealer says(?) that they work. Of course coils don't return any "OK" signal to BMS-K...thus...

Rumor is that the plugs fire at different timing (when idling) to facilitate a perfect(?) mixture burn.

AntonLargiader · 06-28-2010, 08:56 AM

Well, it basically looks like the right sensor goes rich, Lambda correction changes to a lower value, the steppers move and the RPM drops. And when the sensor goes lean, the control value increases, the steppers move and the RPM rises.

Might swap sensors and see if the results change sides. You can see the Cyl 1 correction value is very stable while the Cyl 2 value changes with the RPM.

I'm still surprised that the injection time and stepper position are the same on both cylinders.

peter f · 06-28-2010, 09:12 AM

Hmm

Indeed interesting assumption...BUT...here's the bad news > some time ago I operated the bike with some L-emulators (an Italian made cheapo electronic box that sends a constant value of 1 to BMS-K).

These things are supposedly required for that RapidBike serial ECU thing in order to deliver a zillion ponies. A wishful thinking (for those NOT having the BMS-K 9.x build).

Anyway, the L-emulators worked OK, even the GT-1 was reporting that constant L=1 condition.

During that time the idle problems of mine...well...they were the very same. On the other hand no information is provided about how exactly all that mess (the RapidBike et all) works in relation with BMS-K.

Note: prior the RapidBike installation...same ugly idle as well. That bike is BORN bad, I tell you (like my ex K12R).

Finally I've installed back the OEM L-sensors due to hideous fuel consumption (and some virtual ponies, really the art of pointless).

AntonLargiader · 06-28-2010, 09:18 AM

It would be interesting to see these logs with the L-emulators on. That will take some noise out.

peter f · 06-28-2010, 09:23 AM

OK, I'll try to re-do the log.

BUT...is it possible all that cyl 2 mess (and indeed the equivalent plugs, when examined, they tell the rich mixture story) could be due to some air leak due to a "vibration" of some sort of the throttle butterfly itself?

I mean some faulty right butterfly mini "bearing" from the day one.

See this: Motorworks - BMW Motorcycle Spares - Products - R1200 (8 valve) except Cruiser- Fuel parts- Ticker Killer

AntonLargiader · 06-28-2010, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter f

BUT...is it possible all that cyl 2 mess (and indeed the equivalent plugs, when examined, they tell the rich mixture story) could be due to some air leak due to a "vibration" of some sort of the throttle butterfly itself?

IMO, absolutely. I think it's going to end up being something simple and very likely mechanical. But there's a lot you can still do.

- Unplug the steppers and see if the idle stops hunting. If so, then you know the steppers are driving it and you need to look for things that would make the BMS want to move the steppers.

- unplug one injector. The BMS will compensate. See if the idle hunts with the right injector working and not with the left injector working.

- If you can put the L-emulators back on and the log shows that there is still a wandering control factor, then the Lambda input isn't the only link in that chain.

- Stuff like that. Play around.

geothepencil · 06-30-2010, 09:32 AM

It has been suggested to us that a Throttlerocker on certain BMW bikes including the R1200S can be the source of idle and throttle problems. Wouldn't be hard to test that one out if you have one.

geo

AZ-J · AZ-J's Garage

I use a ThrottleRocker with no idle issues. Sometimes, if it is adjusted too low around, on slow manuevers, it hits the tank, though. lol!

peter f · 06-30-2010, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geothepencil

It has been suggested to us that a Throttlerocker on certain BMW bikes including the R1200S can be the source of idle and throttle problems. Wouldn't be hard to test that one out if you have one.

geo

What's this? You mean the eccentric "pulley" on the right TB?

JP Norton · 11:38 PM

Peter, for many years I owned a motorcycle dealer/dismantler/repair business here in the US. When we came across "problem bikes", sometimes (very rarely) we'd switch out specific parts with known good ones, to see if it made any difference.

It doesn't sound like you've narrowed the troubleshoot down, between an electrical or fuel related fault. At this point, I would suggest swapping out the entire FI assembly, and seeing if there's an improvement. Barring that, begin swapping out electrical equipment (perhaps the preferred fault code procedure just needs to be set aside). Once this has been gone through, proceed on to swapping mechanical parts.

Your shop (or the factory) is going to need access to known good examples of these parts. That's where a salvaged bike would be very handy to perform this sort of relatively crude troubleshoot.

I realize you're in Greece and there is a scarcity of vehicles with which to do this. But perhaps a trip to Berlin would help. Maybe the factory would help. But it doesn't help that you've experimented and modified your machine. (I know, you state this problem has been there since day 1)

I know this form of TS may not be feasible, in your case, or that the factory might need to be the recourse for such. But try having your dealer suggest this to the factory, or petition the factory on your own. Here in California, we have what is known as the "Lemon law." (Google for info) Does the EU have such a thing?

Hope this has expanded your options in some way.

peter f · 07-01-2010, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP Norton

Here in California, we have what is known as the "Lemon law." (Google for info) Does the EU have such a thing?

Hope this has expanded your options in some way.

Well,

Greece as a whole is a lemon law, thus the possibility to do the trial and error thing via Dealers/BMW Hellas et all is less than zero. The only thing that they know to do is plug the bike in GT-1 and report that there's nothing wrong (additionally high quality customer support is purely a virtual desire).

On the other hand, I'm too frustrated with this particular crap bike to fly to Berlin/Munich in order to find salvaged parts (which is ambiguous if they can solve the problem). If the bike was some Ducati...then yes it could worth the effort.

Of course there's always some possibility to find an injection set in perfect order at an incredible price, See this (a friend got it for putting into his GS - the art of pointless anyway)

geothepencil · 07-01-2010, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter f

What's this? You mean the eccentric "pulley" on the right TB?

No, those clip on to the grip plastic pieces that you can rest your palm on while riding to take the stress off your hand from holding the grip. I fail to see how it would affect the R12, but I do think ours idles smoother when hot without it on there. It was suggested by Pridmore's tech crew to us that we should take it off.

geo

JP Norton · 07-01-2010, 06:47 AM

I don't recommend buying/switching parts, due to costs (even 150 euros). And don't switch parts from anything other than a S model.

You really need access to a shop with a salvaged bike (an insurance process, here in California), that is to say a crashed bike with such parts intact.

Petitioning the factory, in my opinion, is a viable alternative. Failure to do so represents a failure to explore all possible options.

Personally, I think the bike is worth it. In proper running condition, it possesses many advantages over all Ducatis. Now I'm not saying I'm anti-Ducati. I've owned and worked on many; they are wonderful bikes. But the BMW big twin is a superior piece of engineering that is worth the effort of making right.

I would make inquiries to European shops for access to a salvaged/crashed bike, or even a shop that's willing to pull parts off a known good bike. I'd also petition the factory for such an effort.

Anyway, these are my suggestions. If you've given up or this sounds too arduous for some reason, suit yourself.

OwenM · 07-02-2010, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP Norton

Personally, I think the bike is worth it. In proper running condition, it possesses many advantages over all Ducatis. Now I'm not saying I'm anti-Ducati. I've owned and worked on many; they are wonderful bikes. But the BMW big twin is a superior piece of engineering that is worth the effort of making right.

I don't know what Ducatis you have owned but I would never put my BMW R12S is the same class as my Duc 1098S, the BMW was a very basic and ordinary machine in comparison.

At the risk of being blunt the BMW boxer twin is a donkey and put to shame by the raw responsiveness and power of Ducati and the smooth, responsive and very sophisticated performance of the Aprilia V twins IMHO. The boxer is much more suited to a touring bike than a sports bike and even then its more about character that sophisticated performance.

I know this is a BMW forum and my comments my cause offence but a reality check is in order here.

Fenring · 07-02-2010, 06:04 AM

Peter, I think you just had bad luck with your bike. I've noticed all the idle problems you mention in orig. post on my bike as well, but they only happen occasionally and usually go away quickly. Sometimes I think idle starts acting up if perhaps oil level is low, or it's too cold or too hot outside. Personally I believe it's more of a design flaw (mechanical) that would present itself differently on each bike and the idle would stutter when electronics try to compensate.

So sorry you had so much grief with yours.

peter f · 07-02-2010, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenring

Peter, I think you just had bad luck with your bike. I've noticed all the idle problems you mention in orig. post on my bike as well, but they only happen occasionally and usually go away quickly. Sometimes I think idle starts acting up if perhaps oil level is low, or it's too cold or too hot outside. Personally I believe it's more of a design flaw (mechanical) that would present itself differently on each bike and the idle would stutter when electronics try to compensate.

So sorry you had so much grief with yours.

Indeed this thing is the king of craps (more than 30 bikes owned, never another bike gave me such a frustration - and I'm not talking solely about idle issues).

Anyway...my cynicism apart... I had the best of intentions when I bought the thing 2.5 years ago...to the extent to spend time (and fighting The Angry Wife) designing various stuff - shown here at WIP/unfinished stage (spot the CNC oil cooler + SPAL fan).

But, you know what? It's all about karma : the entire related CAD dataset is lost (carried over in a memory stick - never stored in one of many workstations at home: how idiot someone can be?).

Moral: biking and karma are pretty much the same thing

He He

Fenring · 07-02-2010, 01:19 PM

That's pretty cool. You do CAD professionally?

phoenixtexoma · 07-02-2010, 03:24 PM

The R1200S a "donkey" compared to a Ducati or Aprilla? First, compare apples to apples. The BMW is an air-cooled engine, both the Ducati and Aprilla are liquid cooled. You should be comparing the Ducati and Aprilla to a Suzuki Hayabusa and a Honda Blackbird. Engineering-wise, the Ducati and Aprilla log in at #3 & #4. In brute, mind-numbing acceleration and top end speed, the Ducati and Aprilla are...#3 &#4 by an even wider margin. As in a couple of one-legged men in a butt-kicking contest. That said, I personally like BMW donkeys.

2wheelmike · 07-02-2010, 03:55 PM

Peter,
How are you capturing your data with the GS-911? I have one with blue-tooth connection to my blackberry. However, it doesn't have nearly as much of an interface as connected directly via USB to the laptop. That said, it would be easy to put a laptop in a tank bag and make runs on the road as you desire. If I can get a small enough laptop, I could try on my R12S, which as far as I know, idles correctly (1200+/-25 rpm).

OwenM · 07-03-2010, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixtexoma

The R1200S a "donkey" compared to a Ducati or Aprilla? First, compare apples to apples. The BMW is an air-cooled engine, both the Ducati and Aprilla are liquid cooled. You should be comparing the Ducati and Aprilla to a Suzuki Hayabusa and a Honda Blackbird. Engineering-wise, the Ducati and Aprilla log in at #3 & #4. In brute, mind-numbing acceleration and top end speed, the Ducati and Aprilla are...#3 by an even wider margin. As in a couple of one-legged men in a butt-kicking contest. That said, I personally like BMW donkeys.

I expected a negative response but you missed the point, it had nothing to do with peak HP or air cooling. I could give the details but I expect you would not want to hear rational criticism from a former owner.