Tesla Model 3

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by madcorgi

To my eye, the car is a dead ringer for the unlovely Renault Caravelle from the early 60s.

Yeah, I wonder why Tesla chose to use that front end profile.

The Model 3 looks like it has great visibility. Is that correct, madcorgi?

[Nickshu]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Yeah, I wonder why Tesla chose to use that front end profile.

Man I agree 100% I don't know what they were thinking with the front end design. Looks like a duck or the front end of an amphibious vehicle. There's a bunch of them around here now on the road, I see them every day.

Otherwise cool car.

[Jim Richards]

Maybe the blank front surface is driving home the point that there’s no oxygen-breathing engine lurking behind that surface. Just electricity.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

They are coming and coming soon. One other factor you forgot - profit. Tesla loses money, pretty sure most car companies aren't ok with that being part of the equation.

What have you heard ? My lease expires in 6 months and I have nothing 100% electric lined up...

VW doesn't even have a 2018 E-golf here, the bolt has range but is ugly, the Nissan is ugly, the I8 is ugly, the Audi is gonna be 75K minimum... If anyone did something like an E-GTi I'd be in as a beater. Right now my best propect is a Jag E-pace and they are also too pricey for a beater.

Profit: I don't know.. I assume that a group like VW that shares platforms might be able to line up economies of scale Tesla cannot touch, and panel gaps that don't let sunlight in. Batteries though, might be expensive no matter what... I'm genuinely puzzled it's taking this long when Tesla proved the viability of the cars in 2012, I would think at 35-45K 250 w/miles and "that acceleration", there would be a big market...

[cairns]

Thanks for your input, but I would rather hear from someone who WOULD buy one. They are way more interesting than the usual whine about Musk.

Then I guess you didn't want to hear from the OP.

I echo Deschodt. If the car actually sold at $35K or so instead of the $50K plus they're asking I'd consider one...but the CEO would have to act like a CEO for at least awhile and the company would have to have shown a profit. I'm not going to buy a car from an unstable company. Whining or not that's a factor for me. It's like buying a Rover in the US.....(and I'm old enough to remember people who did).

We're actually considering the Golf Sport Wagon at $32K (retail) with a manual rather than any of the electrics or hybrids.

However I really do think the car is good looking- but I'm not a fan of the interior. I think the screen should be in front of the driver. Looking down to the right to check anything isn't too ergonomic or safe IMO. Was surprised to see how low it was.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

What have you heard ? My lease expires in 6 months and I have nothing 100% electric lined up...

VW doesn't even have a 2018 E-golf here, the bolt has range but is ugly, the Nissan is ugly, the I8 is ugly, the Audi is gonna be 75K minimum... If anyone did something like an E-GTi I'd be in as a beater. Right now my best propect is a Jag E-pace and they are also too pricey for a beater.

Profit: I don't know.. I assume that a group like VW that shares platforms might be able to line up economies of scale Tesla cannot touch, and panel gaps that don't let sunlight in. Batteries though, might be expensive no matter what... I'm genuinely puzzled it's taking this long when Tesla proved the viability of the cars in 2012, I would think at 35-45K 250 w/miles and "that acceleration", there would be a big market...

Here's one article, VAG has been very public about pushing electric cars post-dieselgate.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-vows-to-overtake-tesla-with-worlds-largest-electric-car-fleet-1520955348

Maybe not 6 months, but pretty soon there will be more options.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Nickshu

I don't know what they were thinking with the front end design. .

It's not a water pumper.

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Yeah, I wonder why Tesla chose to use that front end profile.

The Model 3 looks like it has great visibility. Is that correct, madcorgi?

It does. I plan on some more extended "testing" next week and will report back if anyone is interested. Will definitely take it to the dragstrip and try to annoy some Mustangs. Hell--my daughter drove my race cars for years, so the least she can do is let me do some laps down the strip.

Cairns--we have a 2017 Golf Sportwagen and we love it. It's my wife's daily, so it has an automatic, but it's great to drive. And it will carry a ton--it's about 90% of what I need a pickup for.

[Nickshu]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

It's not a water pumper.

Not saying it needs a grill, just needs to not look like waterfowl.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by madcorgi

Tesla still has a lot going for it as a brand, and it has a pretty loyal customer base. Demand is still high, and I think the mission is worthy. I would expect quality problems on an early car with the factory under so much stress. Based on that, I probably would not have bought the car myself. But my daughter didn't ask for my opinion, and she tends to manage her own life pretty well.

One nice thing about Teslae is that they are really pretty simple in comparison with regular IC cars and certainly hybrids, which combine both IC and electric technologies and are thus hugely complicated. By contrast, Tesla has one or two electric motors and batteries, no transmission (just a reduction gear), and everything in the powertrain plugs in. So the standard big-ticket IC car worries like cylinder wall scoring and IMS bearing failures are nonexistent. That leaves the standard peripherals, which can be expensive, for sure, but overall, I see the risk as a bit lower than with regular first-year cars.

All good points. I would agree, it is probably a hoot to drive. The issue is your daughter had to refuse delivery due to the car being poorly built. I hope they get their act together and can produce good quality vehicles are a good price. The 14% pass yield is a serious issue.

The issue with the motorized vents, they seem like an unnecessary gimmick. Like the oversized touch screen. It seems like a good place for a cost reduction! If they cannot get these things going quickly, GM, Ford, VW, etc. will eventually catch up.

I'm glad your daughter is happy with her purchase. And If they really were $30K, and comparable to other similar $30K sedans, I'd consider one. I wish Ford would put together a serious plug in Hybrid.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

It's not a water pumper.

Actually, I think it is...I believe the battery packs require cooling.

[Jim Richards]

IIRC, to help with Tesla’s cash flow, the $50k tarted-up version of the Model 3 is being delivered before the $35k basic version of the car hits the street.

[Jim Richards]

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-battery-cooling-track-mode/

[aschen]

I am not sure if this is still the case, but at least at one point the Tesla business model was to dominate Li-ion battery manufacture through economies of massive scale. I believe any major car manufacture can duplicate a high end electric car with moderate investment. I think duplicating huge scale battery production is substantially more difficult with a longer outlook. I don't know if it will go to plan but if Tesla can make batteries substantially cheaper than other companies can source them for that is a big market advantage.

I am electric car curious and would love to own one at some point.

[cairns]

Cairns--we have a 2017 Golf Sportwagen and we love it. It's my wife's daily, so it has an automatic, but it's great to drive. And it will carry a ton--it's about 90% of what I need a pickup for.

That's really good to hear. My niece just bought an Atlas last week and the wife loved the screen and the Apple Apps (well of course why else would you choose one car over another?). We have an old X5 V8 that is well past it's prime and needs to be replaced. I love baby wagons and think they're the most practical cars made....Europeans are smarter than we are...well at least when it comes to cars.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by cairns

I love baby wagons and think they're the most practical cars made....Europeans are smarter than we are...well at least when it comes to cars.

^^^this

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

What are the other guys waiting for ? Why is everything 2020 or more ?

A couple of points:

GM have a product that is close, they are not too far away from having a battery that is significantly better than the BOLT currently has.

Very few companies are as nimble as Tesla. I am working on two vehicle battery programs in Detroit right now. The design delays, the launch length, and the lack of 'push' within the organization are shocking.

Tesla has kept a LOT of his technology not just in the USA, but in his factories. He is never far from a problem. My customers are a long way away and their factory will be in the third world. Cheaper, but slower.

Tesla is first to market, he has proven (to most people) that e-cars are a viable and fun car (or second car). We are going to be at Stage II very soon: who can do it cheapest. If you are one of the big boys you better design out all the costs you can. This will be an epic battle. Does it end with a Chinese car ordered off Amazon?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

A couple of points:

GM have a product that is close, they are not too far away from having a battery that is significantly better than the BOLT currently has.

Very few companies are as nimble as Tesla. I am working on two vehicle battery programs in Detroit right now. The design delays, the launch length, and the lack of 'push' within the organization are shocking.

Tesla has kept a LOT of his technology not just in the USA, but in his factories. He is never far from a problem. My customers are a long way away and their factory will be in the third world. Cheaper, but slower.

Tesla is first to market, he has proven (to most people) that e-cars are a viable and fun car (or second car). We are going to be at Stage II very soon: who can do it cheapest. If you are one of the big boys you better design out all the costs you can. This will be an epic battle. Does it end with a Chinese car ordered off Amazon?

I totally understand organizational inertia with regards to a big company that is heavily invested in R&D. BUT, I think you are seeing the downside to some of Tesla's approach. Nimble and fast has also translated to a low quality product that doesn't meet most of the published performance parameters. All domestic manufacturing with little outsourcing has yielded a product that loses money. While the big guys may be slow and cumbersome, I'm also certain that there is a method to their madness.

[1990C4S]

I agree Matt, there is no panacea. You can't be out front, fast, flawless, and cheap.

And in the end no one will care that Tesla paved the way. Blackberry had a really great phone for the time...Tesla is more Blackberry, less Ford.

I also think Musk made one critical error: he should have invested in the drivetrain and software, then contracted out the suspension, body, and assembly. Someone like Magna could be running the plant at a fixed price per vehicle, and Musk would be providing the differentiator.

Too bad he's not as s mart as me.

Yes, the old buy vs. build conundrum. Tesla is very heavily vertical. I got an "employee tour" several years way back when their factory was less paranoid. Saw where the big rolls of aluminum come in one end and the finished cars glide out the other. Watched large numbers of folks (probably all illegals) assembling battery packs in expen$ive Freemont CA. It's great to have production right there at your door, until it isn't. Apple has the sense to send its production to Foxconn, where low-paid workers jump into suicide nets during breaks.

Musk is a classic case of where an entrepreneur's creation outgrows him. It gets really troublesome when you decide to use other peoples' money to fund your dream. Once you stumble, the shareholders and PE guys push you out. That's why Musk wants to take it private. Less "help" from those pesky investors.