What are your thoughts on gm killing off the cruze and impala .

[cabmandone]

^^^
Isn't the Impala a mid size? I thought it fell in line with a Fusion in size.

I had to go look and GM does classify it as a full size. It's about 9" longer than a Fusion but Fusion is about 3" wider. Kinda funny, I have never seen both cars side by side but would have sworn they were the same size.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by cabmando

^^^
Isn't the Impala a mid size? I thought it fell in line with a Fusion in size.

I had to go look and GM does classify it as a full size. It's about 9" longer than a Fusion but Fusion is about 3" wider. Kinda funny, I have never seen both cars side by side but would have sworn they were the same size.

What has happened is the need to make each successive model "nicer than the last", eventually a new model comes in takes over as an under sibling.

The Honda Civic's evolution would be a good example.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Why? The answer is taxes. Imported goods are not taxed the same way as goods made in the USA. If only we could level the playing field....

The answer is getting rid of any type of income tax and going to a consumption tax. Then you will see the difference between USA manufacturing and the rest of the world.

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/why-hyundai/built-in-usa.aspx

https://offshoregroup.com/industries/automotive-manufacturing-in-mexico/

[sammyg2]

Ah the good old days when you could tell one car apart from another, each one had distinct styling.
Get off my lawn.

four different manufacturers making basically the same car:

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

I've owned two minivans over the years (wife drove them) a voyager POS and a sienna.
My highlander has just as much room or more than either, lots more power, and the mileage is just as good. And it handles significantly better.

Minivans are not more practical or more economical compared to a highlander, the only reason to get one over a smaller SUV or CUV is if you needed to carry 7 or 8 people and the smaller SUV or CUV didn't have enough seats.
In that case an 8 passenger SUV would be the better choice.

My wife has a RAV4 and I like the fact that it is smaller and more nimble and sporty, but I just can't get past the loud rough ride.
Up until a year or two ago Toyota sacrificed sound deadening and insulation for weight savings on the RAV4.
I hate riding in that thing, sounds like sticking my head in a snare drum.
If it weren't for that it'd be a great vehicle.

my daughter has one of those lexus hybrids, 200h or some such.
Even that thing is too much like a sedan for my tastes.
The idea of driving a regular car simply does not appeal to me at all. The last time i had a car as a DD was in the late 80's IIRC.
I can't imagine buying another.

Sorry but Highlander vs minivan is no comparison. My parents own a 2018 Highlander that I have driven a LOT, my sister in law owns a 2019, and I previously owned a 2017 Sienna and before that a 2012 Quest. Second row is smaller, third row is smaller, behind the third row is smaller. If you need to haul people and or stuff, nothing beats a minivan. Which also gets better MPG btw, both in reality and per the EPA. As far as fun, they are all a total FAIL. SUV looks "cooler" but the Highlander still sucks to drive, underneath it's identical to a Sienna.

[Brian 162]

I feel bad for the workers losing their jobs. But I really feel bad for anyone that winds up with one of the vehicles made this week at the affected plants.

[URY914]

I like it when MotorWeek or some other show or magazine tries to do comparison testing of four "mid-size SUV's".

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!

[rfuerst911sc]

It appears that GM is doing what they feel they need to do to survive in the future and there is nothing wrong with that , if it were our business we might do the same . But where I disagree with GM is the closing of the plants . Is GM saying they have enough build capacity to cover " the future " without these plants ? I have to think retooling existing plants is cheaper then building new from scratch . Or is their new vision to outsource and roll the dice ? If you outsource you are at the mercy of suppliers you can't control that doesn't make sense to me .

I also think that many workers are over paid for the jobs they perform making profit margins smaller . Sky rocketing health care costs and a growing retirement fund cost isn't helping either but a smart efficient company can budget for that . And finally I think there are just too many car companies out there it's simple supply and demand . As others have stated one SUV is the same from many different companies so it boils down to either price or service or which fancy gadgets come standard . I think there will be future downsizing and merging and the line workers will come out as the most punished by the actions .

[RANDY P]

Cars all look the same thanks to Gubmint mandates around the world. Pedestrian safety for Europeans, ets

Too much nanny tech in new cars- E- shifters and auto-stop are the final straw for me. My current car has both but it willl most likely be the last new car I buy. No tactile feel, no control and lags- lags everywhere operating the stuff.

rjp

[masraum]

Originally Posted by cabmando

^^^
Isn't the Impala a mid size?

That's why I used the "". I wouldn't consider it a full size, but it's what passes for one these days. To me, the last full size impala was what, 1996? Similar to the Crown Vic which sold until 2007 to private owners, and was still made for cops and cabs for a few more years and for export until 2012. It looks like the Lincoln Town Car version (and possibly the Mercury Grand Marquis was sold until 2011.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

It appears that GM is doing what they feel they need to do to survive in the future and there is nothing wrong with that , if it were our business we might do the same . But where I disagree with GM is the closing of the plants . Is GM saying they have enough build capacity to cover " the future " without these plants ? I have to think retooling existing plants is cheaper then building new from scratch ..

GM is describing the plants as "unassigned," meaning they don't currently have a product to produce in it. It's not being described as scheduled for complete closure.

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

And finally I think there are just too many car companies out there it's simple supply and demand . As others have stated one SUV is the same from many different companies so it boils down to either price or service or which fancy gadgets come standard . I think there will be future downsizing and merging and the line workers will come out as the most punished by the actions .

I don't think there are enough competing car companies. That's why cars all look the same and all cost nearly the same. We always seem to have a few upstarts now and then, but the economies of scale of the BIG companies building the same things overshadow the new products. If the few big companies were smaller and less powerful, and newer companies could compete, we would have more innovation and more choices.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by masraum

That's why I used the "". I wouldn't consider it a full size, but it's what passes for one these days. To me, the last full size impala was what, 1996? Similar to the Crown Vic which sold until 2007 to private owners, and was still made for cops and cabs for a few more years and for export until 2012. It looks like the Lincoln Town Car version (and possibly the Mercury Grand Marquis was sold until 2011.

I was going nuts today in the parking lot looking at Impala's and thinking to myself "that thing is not a full size car" I was about to park next to one until I saw someone pull in with a new Fusion and ask them to take my parking space... just to compare.

[cabmandone]

Personally I like Hyundai. They take bits and pieces from every brand, slap it on their cars and call it their own. They must save a bundle on design engineers. I just saw the pics of a 2020 Hyundai Palisade. It's a mix of a Lexus R350, Ford Explorer/Range Rover, Toyota Sequoia

[Porchdog]

The models that are cut just aren't competitive enough to make the profit the company needs. They made the decision not to invest the money in those lines to try to chase those possible profits, in order to free up that capital for investment in the lines that are making them money.

Now they have those Local/State governments and the Union incentivized to get more successful products produced in those plants - which could be very good for GM.

The level of regulation on the auto product - emissions, safety, fuel economy - means that all manufacturers need to chase economies of scale. Development costs are to high not to apply them to as many units as possible.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

Cars all look the same thanks to Gubmint mandates around the world. Pedestrian safety for Europeans, ets

Too much nanny tech in new cars- E- shifters and auto-stop are the final straw for me. My current car has both but it willl most likely be the last new car I buy. No tactile feel, no control and lags- lags everywhere operating the stuff.

rjp

Add wind tunnel testing and mpg to the design mix. The use of more aluminum, plastics and high strength steels reducing weight of the vehicle puts demand on molds / tools and design. Add up all of the mandates and market forces, everything looks a like.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

It appears that GM is doing what they feel they need to do to survive in the future and there is nothing wrong with that , if it were our business we might do the same . But where I disagree with GM is the closing of the plants . Is GM saying they have enough build capacity to cover " the future " without these plants ? I have to think retooling existing plants is cheaper then building new from scratch . Or is their new vision to outsource and roll the dice ? If you outsource you are at the mercy of suppliers you can't control that doesn't make sense to me .

I also think that many workers are over paid for the jobs they perform making profit margins smaller . Sky rocketing health care costs and a growing retirement fund cost isn't helping either but a smart efficient company can budget for that . And finally I think there are just too many car companies out there it's simple supply and demand . As others have stated one SUV is the same from many different companies so it boils down to either price or service or which fancy gadgets come standard . I think there will be future downsizing and merging and the line workers will come out as the most punished by the actions .

In house labor costs are about 10% of sale price. Modern manufacturing workers aren't turning a bolt with a wrench. They are operating mukti million dollar machines and are responsible for production and outgoing quality.

Have you ever worked in a large manufacturing facility?

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

It appears that GM is doing what they feel they need to do to survive in the future and there is nothing wrong with that , if it were our business we might do the same . But where I disagree with GM is the closing of the plants . Is GM saying they have enough build capacity to cover " the future " without these plants ? I have to think retooling existing plants is cheaper then building new from scratch . Or is their new vision to outsource and roll the dice ? If you outsource you are at the mercy of suppliers you can't control that doesn't make sense to me .

I also think that many workers are over paid for the jobs they perform making profit margins smaller . Sky rocketing health care costs and a growing retirement fund cost isn't helping either but a smart efficient company can budget for that . And finally I think there are just too many car companies out there it's simple supply and demand . As others have stated one SUV is the same from many different companies so it boils down to either price or service or which fancy gadgets come standard . I think there will be future downsizing and merging and the line workers will come out as the most punished by the actions .

This may have been true years ago, but not so much anymore. Everyone's costs are in line and competitive. Assembly line production is taken from the Toyota Production system (TPS). It's all just in time. My company supplies parts to the OEs. Parts are shipped daily - it's quantity specific, I can't ship more than what is asked and certainly not less (you don't want to shut a line down) Truck pick up and deliveries are on a clock. Everything is tracked and measured.

Labor costs are just about on par throughout the industry. Temp workers are used to buffer lows and highs based on days of supply.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by jcommin

This may have been true years ago, but not so much anymore. Everyone's costs are in line and competitive. Assembly line production is taken from the Toyota Production system (TPS). It's all just in time. My company supplies parts to the OEs. Parts are shipped daily - it's quantity specific, I can't ship more than what is asked and certainly not less (you don't want to shut a line down) Truck pick up and deliveries are on a clock. Everything is tracked and measured.

Labor costs are just about on par throughout the industry. Temp workers are used to buffer lows and highs based on days of supply.

This is corrwct. I retired from a major OE supplier..

[onewhippedpuppy]

Just read an article this morning confirming that the Ford plant changes aren’t impacting their headcount. They are retooling existing car plants to build SUVs, and moving people between plants in the same cities to balance output, but ultimately they aren’t laying off. I think that’s a key difference here, Ford is shifting capacity while GM is actively reducing it. Maybe they’ll retool and bring the workers back in six months to build a new product, but for now they are actively reducing their production capacity.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

My guess is it's a combination of saving money while retooling, putting pressure on/breaking the union and they don't need the capacity.

Post the article Matt.

I know Buick sales are huge in China. I wonder how the trade war has impacted those sales.