F1 2020 Thread

[David]

The mid field racing has been so good they’re getting all the tv time. Not sure Mercedes dominance is working out the way the marketing folks would like.

[petrolhead611]

The first three still get all the interviews at the end Their racesuits are completely plastered with sponsor logos in plain view,much easier to read than on a moving car.

[sammyg2]

If I had paid to see that race, I'd be demanding refund.

[legion]

What happened to Sainz? I saw that he was in the pits midway through the first lap. I saw no coverage of an accident and didn't hear a mention of him during the race.

[Halm]

Originally Posted by legion

What happened to Sainz? I saw that he was in the pits midway through the first lap. I saw no coverage of an accident and didn't hear a mention of him during the race.

Mechanical issue on the staging lap.

[legion]

I'm a Hamilton fan, but even I've gotten bored. They should not have pushed back the new regulations a season. Let him get his seven and then make it interesting.

I really wish they'd do something like specify a standard body (so that it can be designed for close racing), but tells the teams they can do whatever they want with the engine as long as it is 1 liter in displacement and they use no more than 30 gallons of a standard fuel during a race. (Also, no KERS, MGU-K, or MGU-H.) (Also, no oil burning.) Then if one team dominates, the next season they can introduce a max fuel flow or some other limitation to shake things up.

[nota]

with the extra battery power it would be eazy to dyno test the cars gas motor of each car on the grid
then control the added el power so the cars are at the same power level

or pull off the wings so the cars can slipstream pass several times a lap like monza in 67

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by legion

I'm a Hamilton fan, but even I've gotten bored. They should not have pushed back the new regulations a season. Let him get his seven and then make it interesting.

I really wish they'd do something like specify a standard body (so that it can be designed for close racing), but tells the teams they can do whatever they want with the engine as long as it is 1 liter in displacement and they use no more than 30 gallons of a standard fuel during a race. (Also, no KERS, MGU-K, or MGU-H.) (Also, no oil burning.) Then if one team dominates, the next season they can introduce a max fuel flow or some other limitation to shake things up.

I disagree. I hate economy runs! What next solar power only?

Go back to V8 - V10 or V-12, naturally aspirated only, 2.0 liters max, no more flappy paddle shifting, stick shift and clutch only, and eliminate the huge front wing, just a spoiler to keep the air from under the car. Eliminate the giant rear wing, just a Gurney flap to keep the car on the ground.

Aerodynamics needs to be much reduced. Yea, they can't take corners at 170 MPH flat, and they will have to drive to the limit of tires. And make the tires work so hard three stops are the minimum stops just for tires.

One of the things that made the last race so boring is the leaders were all nursing worn out tires around and no one except the back markers were pushing at all, just an economy run.

[javadog]

Limit the workforce to a hundred, or two hundred employees. Outlaw the use of all previously designed parts.

[rusnak]

Something does not add up, regarding the way that Ferrari has fallen by the wayside. There is no way that they have forgotten how to make a quick race car in less than a year.

[legion]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Something does not add up, regarding the way that Ferrari has fallen by the wayside. There is no way that they have forgotten how to make a quick race car in less than a year.

They were cheating and the FIA couldn't definitively prove it, so the FIA said: "Show us what you did and how you did it, and we'll let you off with a slap on the wrist." That's what the "secret" settlement is all about. Ferrari was going to lose the ability to increase their fuel flow and drip oil into the combustion chamber through the intercooler one way or another, so they might as well close the door on other teams too.

[rusnak]

^ there has got to be some other penalty that Ferrari is secretly being held to, or perhaps they are going back to a 2018 spec PU.

[legion]

There's a lot of information about the settlement out there. Basically, Ferrari declared that what they had done to increase performance was a "proprietary and confidential" technology used on their road cars. This basically meant that the FIA didn't have the legal grounds to force them to disclose what they'd done. But for some reason, Red Bull seemed to know exactly what was done and asked for several clarifications of the technical regs. So the FIA changed tactics and asked for a voluntary disclosure if the FIA would sign a NDA and not penalize Ferrari. Ferrari were boxed in and knew it, so they opted to make sure no other teams could copy them.

At the same time, the whole plan backfired on Ferrari because it pushed Mercedes to find even more performance to attempt to match Ferrari. Honda and Renault improved as well. Ferrari's advantage was removed as they went down a path that is now closed to them, and they found themselves way behind everyone else.

[bkreigsr]

Doesn't the fact that the steering wheel shaft adjustment from the cockpit, while driving, equate to having an active suspension?

They showed Hammy pushing and pulling the shaft in and out at least 4 inches during the race.

During the last race, the talking heads said something about Mercedes can alter camber so they don't have to do the 'weave' to clean debris off, or get some heat, in the tires during yellow, or warm-up laps.

I'm not a big Ham fan, but his 4-wheel drifting through the esses in Q2, and Q3, was impressive.

Bill K

[legion]

Originally Posted by bkreigsr

Doesn't the fact that the steering wheel shaft adjustment from the cockpit, while driving, equate to having an active suspension?

They showed Hammy pushing and pulling the shaft in and out at least 4 inches during the race.

During the last race, the talking heads said something about Mercedes can alter camber so they don't have to do the 'weave' to clean debris off, or get some heat, in the tires during yellow, or warm-up laps.

I'm not a big Ham fan, but his 4-wheel drifting through the esses in Q2, and Q3, was impressive.

Bill K

My understanding is that the regulations were worded in such a way that there was an exception to the "moveable aerodynamic device" rule for steering--and the current regulation allows the steering wheel to change the camber of each of the front wheels--there was no restriction that they both had to go left or right. Mercedes found the hole and exploited it. From next year on, the regulation has been revised that the wheels can only turn in the SAME direction based on movement of the steering wheel.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by legion

There's a lot of information about the settlement out there. Basically, Ferrari declared that what they had done to increase performance was a "proprietary and confidential" technology used on their road cars. This basically meant that the FIA didn't have the legal grounds to force them to disclose what they'd done. But for some reason, Red Bull seemed to know exactly what was done and asked for several clarifications of the technical regs. So the FIA changed tactics and asked for a voluntary disclosure if the FIA would sign a NDA and not penalize Ferrari. Ferrari were boxed in and knew it, so they opted to make sure no other teams could copy them.

At the same time, the whole plan backfired on Ferrari because it pushed Mercedes to find even more performance to attempt to match Ferrari. Honda and Renault improved as well. Ferrari's advantage was removed as they went down a path that is now closed to them, and they found themselves way behind everyone else.

Wasn't the consensus that they found a legal way to trick the fuel flow meter and averaged it out OK but in reality could use way more fuel ? I mean immediately after the secret deal, the FIA mandated a second fuel flow meter so it sounded cut and dry? Looks like they had a rocket of an engine and a crappy chassis last year and now they're left with just the crappy chassis... I was never a huge fan of theirs but it's sad to see them that bad now wasting Leclerc and Vettel's talent. And with the token system it'll be another year before they can even do anything...

On the flip side, I really enjoyed that "terrible" Renault engine blowing by everyone except Mercedes and especially getting one red bull (smoke that Marko), and seeing the yelow cars 4-5... The only + of a boring race...

[legion]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Wasn't the consensus that they found a legal way to trick the fuel flow meter and averaged it out OK but in reality could use way more fuel ? I mean immediately after the secret deal, the FIA mandated a second fuel flow meter so it sounded cut and dry? Looks like they had a rocket of an engine and a crappy chassis last year and now they're left with just the crappy chassis... I was never a huge fan of theirs but it's sad to see them that bad now wasting Leclerc and Vettel's talent. And with the token system it'll be another year before they can even do anything...

On the flip side, I really enjoyed that "terrible" Renault engine blowing by everyone except Mercedes and especially getting one red bull (smoke that Marko), and seeing the yelow cars 4-5... The only + of a boring race...

It sounds like they saved up fuel past the meter and could also release it more or less at once.

But don't forget about the oil burning either. Their performance dropped a little after each of the "clarifications".

[Jeff Higgins]

Mercedes were burning "oil" as well, just introducing it in a different manner. Their "oil" is about the same viscosity as our "gasoline", and can be used to significantly increase the available BTU's on board the car in a "fuel restricted" rule set.

We take for granted what constitutes "oil" and "gasoline". Both being petroleum distillates, there is a wide range of specific properties that can be classified as either. The FIA have had to very narrowly define the chemical properties of both, because the lines can blur considerably. Remember when Shell developed a "lightweight" gasoline for Ferrari? A few ounces in weight lighter per liter makes a difference...

And yes, Ferrari were accumulating unused fuel past the meter during part throttle running for use under full throttle. They technically never exceeded the allowable flow - at the meter. It's just that their flow at the meter didn't drop (much) when off the throttle like the rules makers assumed everyone understood that it would. Ferrari found an unstated loophole and took advantage. Problem is, when that becomes the cornerstone of your design, once it is found out and "clarified", you are kind of left out in the cold.

I love seeing Ferrari suffer. I hate what they did first to Alonso and now to Seb. I remember Alonso saying he "spent too many sad years at Ferrari". They are simply too Italian to win in F1 anymore - too arrogant, egotistical, and technically incompetent. The days of winning on "passion" are long past - engineering wins today.

I've worked with too many Italian companies - I've seen this all first hand. We yanked contracts from major Italian aerospace companies because of their arrogance, laziness, and technical incompetence. It's a cultural thing that they cannot cover up anymore - the margins are too thin these days. There aren't many secrets left. They lack the discipline to knuckle down, roll up their sleeves, and do the really hard work. The only way Ferrari will ever rise again is to find another outsider, another Ross Brawn... But even if they did, they would be too arrogant to hire him...

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Jeff, I have to disagree with you on your 'arrogance' theory, the 7yrs I spent working for the team 'arrogance wasn't and probably still isn't the reason why they are under performing

Out of all the F1 teams I've worked for the guys and girls at Ferrari easily worked the hardest too by a long way

Aerospace is a very different, slow paced and conservative world compared to F1 so please don't presume you know what the problems are at Ferrari. The inside of Ferrari is very different world to what the outside world presumes it to be and I include what people working in other F1 teams think it would be like

You are right they need another Brawn but there are very few of thoe type of technical leaders around

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Jeff, I have to disagree with you on your 'arrogance' theory, the 7yrs I spent working for the team 'arrogance wasn't and probably still isn't the reason why they are under performing

Out of all the F1 teams I've worked for the guys and girls at Ferrari easily worked the hardest too by a long way

Aerospace is a very different, slow paced and conservative world compared to F1 so please don't presume you know what the problems are at Ferrari. The inside of Ferrari is very different world to what the outside world presumes it to be and I include what people working in other F1 teams think it would be like

You are right they need another Brawn but there are very few of thoe type of technical leaders around

Thanks for your insight - it's a rare privilege to have someone like you with real, inside knowledge of the dynamics of these teams. I stand corrected.

And, yes, my experiences with the Italians comes 100% through aerospace. In that discipline they, well, lack any whatsoever. Their arrogance in the face of their shoddy performance at all levels was something to behold. I'm glad to hear that does not permeate their F1 team as well. I bet their selection process to attain to that level is a bit more demanding than the engineers I worked with.

So, what did Alonso mean by "too many sad years at Ferrari"? Was it him more than the team? And, as a Sebastian Vettel fan, I do have to say it appears there are problems with the team that are not of his making. Maybe they are... all we get to see is what the sometimes all too sensationalist reporting tells us.