Why was Step/Tiptronic given no respect like PDK ?

[svandamme]

PDK is really a racers technology, it was developed in the turbo era, for the 962
because it allowed the driver to keep his foot DOWN and the turbo spooled UP,
which made the turbo way better and efficient in acceleration.

Now sure you could have done the same with an automatic.. but the torque converter just isn't efficient full stop, and it's sure as hell not as efficient with turbo's on hard pulls.. It's jut woolie and all over the place. It takes torque away, and adds latency to the power delivery.
A manual transmission is more efficient and gives more control to the driver that knows what he's doing

But PDK not a chance a human will do faster shifting.. and PDK will never mis shift either..

I wouldn't want it on my fun car for public roads, i like manual and as long as my knees and foot allow it.. i'll clutch..
Especially since I prefer NA engines..
but on the track.. PDK any time, no brainer. and turbos will always do better then NA for racing as well. It's just the easier way to make the big power .

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by svandamme

PDK is really a racers technology, it was developed in the turbo era, for the 962.

It was first used in Audi S1 B-group racer, then for Porsche 956.

https://jalopnik.com/watch-audis-first-double-clutch-transmission-debut-over-1764072236

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by masraum

Slushbox = not sporty
manual transmission with servo operated clutch and magic shifting due to being in 2 gears at once = sporty.

I had a 997S with a tip. It was plenty sporty.

[svandamme]

I don't think the 956 had the real PDK, Everything i read says dual clutch mated to manual 5 speed box. Bit of a weird thing, but i think they used a 956 for testing the 962 PDK robotic gearbox but the 956 in racing wasn't homologated with i and used a regular 5 speed synchromesh at Le Mans.

And that's one of the biggest differences of 956 vs 962 : PDK for Le Mans
other differences was the front foot area, which in the 956 was very problematic for crashes.. it offered no protection as the feet were in front of the front axle.


that Audi might have used it in the field first, could be ,but the design is Porsche, not Audi

[rusnak]

I waited for this thread to die before I ask this question:

"Does anyone have a picture of the Numeric short shifter installed?" I have a 987.2 Cayman S, and I'm trying to determine if it will fit with the stock console and shifter boot/ knob. The videos on the Numeric website are unwatchable.

Badly planned shaky video shot on POS iPhone camera, "Pro" dialog in which the words "dog" and "Yo" are used as pronouns, and pointless fake gang sign flashing does nothing to make me trust the guys making the videos. I see no confirmation that the Numeric shifter can fit in an otherwise stock "sleeper" setup.

[svandamme]

why not start a thread on that, instead of hijacking another thread for something completely unrelated??

really does not compute to me.

[rusnak]

Oh look at McGarrett. Five-O all over me now.

[svandamme]

it's just annoying, you let a thread die on a topic
then everybody get's notification of your non topic.

[DanielDudley]

Cabin fever?

I have seen people row automatics in 928s to good effect. Those old four speeds came out of Mercedes limos and can handle a lot of power and beatings if you just want to beat the piss out of a car. Do they have charisma? No, nor will they anticipate your every wish. Tiptronic is OK, just hardly the stuff of dreams. You used to be able to pick up a 928S with the four speed for 2 or 3 grand. Some Bilstiens and 18 inch wheels, and you were good to go. Lots of torque everywhere with those cars.

Hard for me to say I would pick up an early Boxster with paddles.

[rattlsnak]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

Hard for me to say I would pick up an early Boxster with paddles.

Early Boxsters were not PDK...

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

Cabin fever?

I have seen people row automatics in 928s to good effect. Those old four speeds came out of Mercedes limos and can handle a lot of power and beatings if you just want to beat the piss out of a car. Do they have charisma? No, nor will they anticipate your every wish. Tiptronic is OK, just hardly the stuff of dreams. You used to be able to pick up a 928S with the four speed for 2 or 3 grand. Some Bilstiens and 18 inch wheels, and you were good to go. Lots of torque everywhere with those cars.

Hard for me to say I would pick up an early Boxster with paddles.

I have a PDK in the Macan S that I bought for my girlie to drive. It's got every feature on the factory option list. I tried the paddles, and Sport Plus, little buttons and crap. Yeah it shifts fast. Yeah, the car is stupid crazy fast at insanely low RPMs. Sure, it's like a crazed turbo boosted Mustang on crack. But driving it is too easy. It's like having sex while wearing a rubber.

I don't think I need to write about PDK. It's just "meh" on the street. Unless you're driving a McLaren or Porsche 918 or La Ferrari around a closed race circuit and hanging it out there like Kenny Brack or Chris Goodwin or Chris Harris, then you really are not going to be boy-racer enough to really use it to go any faster. You just have a lazy left and right foot, and a heavier car.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by rusnak

I waited for this thread to die before I ask this question:

"Does anyone have a picture of the Numeric short shifter installed?" I have a 987.2 Cayman S, and I'm trying to determine if it will fit with the stock console and shifter boot/ knob. The videos on the Numeric website are unwatchable.

Badly planned shaky video shot on POS iPhone camera, "Pro" dialog in which the words "dog" and "Yo" are used as pronouns, and pointless fake gang sign flashing does nothing to make me trust the guys making the videos. I see no confirmation that the Numeric shifter can fit in an otherwise stock "sleeper" setup.

It will fit. Really the only difference with the Numeric is that it replaces plastic crap with machined aluminum and ball bearings. Even the 997 GT3 shifter that replaced the plastic bushings with metal bushings still had a crappy plastic frame. I think the only change to the console area is that if you want to set the Numeric at the lowest height you have to cut out the carpet directly underneath the shifter or the shift cable connection will drag.

The 9X6 and 9X7 shift consoles are totally interchangeable. The cables are different though. One other hint, consider upgrading your shift knob as well. The factory knobs have a rubber center that breaks down internally over time, making the knob rock and feel loose. I’m a big fan of the Function First knobs because you can get a variety of colors and the shift pattern machined into the knob. If you want a new boot I normally order from Redline Goods, quality stuff at a great price.

[stealthn]

I have PDK in the 2010 Panamera, hate it, it’s slow and boring. Now I realize it’s not the same feeling as the newer 911 based cars, but I’ll settle for the stick in the Cayman

[Por_sha911]

Back in the day, the Tip was slower in performance, more maintenance, and not as much fun to drive as when the driver had to do the dance with 3 pedals and the shifter. PDK was the first setup that was faster than a manual transmission involving 3 pedals.

Now all the manufacturers and magazines "worship at the altar of statistics". If it doesn't go faster or have more power they don't seem to show interest.

Some people love PDK. Others say it is fine but they feel more connection to the car and have a great enjoyment when using 3 pedals. Johannes Van Overbeek has said many times in Excellence that he enjoys the experience of the older cars with less technology (like standard shift 3 pedal car more than the PDK) because unless he is on the track, top speed and performance don't matter. That is where I am at as well.

So, just like what brand of oil and religion, there a lot of strong opinions. You pick the flavor of transmission that makes you smile.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

It will fit. Really the only difference with the Numeric is that it replaces plastic crap with machined aluminum and ball bearings. Even the 997 GT3 shifter that replaced the plastic bushings with metal bushings still had a crappy plastic frame. I think the only change to the console area is that if you want to set the Numeric at the lowest height you have to cut out the carpet directly underneath the shifter or the shift cable connection will drag.

The 9X6 and 9X7 shift consoles are totally interchangeable. The cables are different though. One other hint, consider upgrading your shift knob as well. The factory knobs have a rubber center that breaks down internally over time, making the knob rock and feel loose. I’m a big fan of the Function First knobs because you can get a variety of colors and the shift pattern machined into the knob. If you want a new boot I normally order from Redline Goods, quality stuff at a great price.

Great info, Thank You !!

I pulled the trigger on the 987 6-speed bundle with cables. I also ordered the Function First knob. The Pelican website does not offer the knob with shift pattern, but it shows an adapter that makes me go "Hmmm".....I bet I can have a good machinist mill it and re-thread it to fit the WEVO shift knob.

As for the PDK conversation, I can say that I have a choice between driving a 7-speed PDK on the Macan S, or a 6-speed manual Getrag on the Cayman S. And I choose the 6-speed manual for daily driving and especially short hops over to the next town over. If going on a longer trip or expecting heavy traffic in L.A. or the S.F. Bay Area, I just rent a car for $50 bucks a day to avoid the twin turbos in the Macan from having to deal with all of that. Both vehicles like the open road.

[Joe Bob]

VW had an auto stick as well.....sluggish, louder and you had to watch from hitting the stick..otherwise you wold knock it of gear..


I was Glen Helen race track A sport equipped 911 wiped everyones butt.......

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Great info, Thank You !!

I pulled the trigger on the 987 6-speed bundle with cables. I also ordered the Function First knob. The Pelican website does not offer the knob with shift pattern, but it shows an adapter that makes me go "Hmmm".....I bet I can have a good machinist mill it and re-thread it to fit the WEVO shift knob.

As for the PDK conversation, I can say that I have a choice between driving a 7-speed PDK on the Macan S, or a 6-speed manual Getrag on the Cayman S. And I choose the 6-speed manual for daily driving and especially short hops over to the next town over. If going on a longer trip or expecting heavy traffic in L.A. or the S.F. Bay Area, I just rent a car for $50 bucks a day to avoid the twin turbos in the Macan from having to deal with all of that. Both vehicles like the open road.

Very nice, I think you’ll be happy! The Function First website offers more custom options than the Pelican catalog, but some of them are also made to order so it takes a few weeks.

[rattlsnak]

I've had older 911s for 20 + years and yes, I get it, it's part of the persona to manually shift those cars on or off the track.. The first "newer" 911 I had that had a manual was an 03 996. That car drove and shifted COMPLETELY different than the earlier 911s obviously. Felt no different than a Camry, Maxima, etc. I have driven several newer 911s and Caymans on and off the track that are manuals and not much different. Of course those cars have a lot of power but the raw feeling that everyone associates with shifting from earlier models is long gone.

I have a GT3 PDK now and it is mechanical perfection.. period...
If you leave it alone, it is in 7th gear at 45 mph at 2,200 rpm. Put it in Sport plus and at 45mph its in 2nd gear at 6,000 rpm.

Three options on shifting... You dont ever have to touch the paddles, you can use the paddles, or you can use the shifter as a sequential shifter like the earlier 996/997 Cup cars have. A lot of people like that option, because your hand is on the shifter and you're still shifting just with no clutch pedal.

I completely see both sides of this arguement, but I, for one, am never going back to a manual 911.

[RKDinOKC]

I like to autocross which typically has tighter corners. With a manual you can over or under rev and let out the clutch to unsettle and rotate the rear of the car more. Doesn't really work that way with PDK. Have to push it into power oversteer or lifting understeer. Neither has as much control of the rotation. Just my experience.

Mosy pro drivers don't necessarily like some of the new fangled stuff like PDK. But when doing fast laps will use it because it is faster.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

I've had older 911s for 20 + years and yes, I get it, it's part of the persona to manually shift those cars on or off the track.. The first "newer" 911 I had that had a manual was an 03 996. That car drove and shifted COMPLETELY different than the earlier 911s obviously. Felt no different than a Camry, Maxima, etc. I have driven several newer 911s and Caymans on and off the track that are manuals and not much different. Of course those cars have a lot of power but the raw feeling that everyone associates with shifting from earlier models is long gone.

I have a GT3 PDK now and it is mechanical perfection.. period...
If you leave it alone, it is in 7th gear at 45 mph at 2,200 rpm. Put it in Sport plus and at 45mph its in 2nd gear at 6,000 rpm.

Three options on shifting... You dont ever have to touch the paddles, you can use the paddles, or you can use the shifter as a sequential shifter like the earlier 996/997 Cup cars have. A lot of people like that option, because your hand is on the shifter and you're still shifting just with no clutch pedal.

I completely see both sides of this arguement, but I, for one, am never going back to a manual 911.

PDK described as "mechanical" perfection when used to "shift" the car with no clutch pedal. That is surely a very interesting description. I can see why you say you don't appreciate the art of manual shifting. It's like writing with a fountain pen vs. a Bic ballpoint pen with paste ink. The Bic won't let you smudge up the paper, and is more efficient at getting the job done. The fountain pen guys will say it's more about having a tool that you enjoy using well.