Oh Wow...one bar patron!

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

EVERYTHING. We woulda been back to normal in March.

What do you think happens when a cat 5 hurricane hits Florida? For 3 weeks, everything is closed. We can EASILY survive that.

When we open back up we will have new infections come in from overseas.

We can't get people to wear a face mask much less bunker up for 3 weeks.

What do you do with medical workers, fire, police, and utility workers. Phones, internet, shut down?

Your plan is impossible to implement and and does not eliminate the spread of the virus at a later date.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Our governor has been playing God as well, extending his emergency order indefinitely. His goal posts haven't moved much, but they were so far from where we were and are that there is no end in sight. Then, our local government has decided to extend things 2 weeks PAST whatever the state restrictions are.

We have long since achieved every milestone our governor originally outlined for our state's reopening. And then some. Quite some time ago. He just keeps raising the bar.

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

And things are not that different, because even though we may have "opened" bars, for example, no one is going to them, so they're still hemorrhaging money. Many didn't even bother to open, because they could afford the extra cost of physically having people working there.

Every such establishment that has reopened around here has been turning people away. Patrons are eager to get in and eat, drink, and be merry. The reduced capacities have made it so that not everyone who would like to patronize is allowed to do so. And yes, many such establishments simply remained closed because it was not worth it to both pay the wait staff, and to also pay the newly required time to clean everything all the time. So it has not been for a lack of customers, it's been the businesses inability to accept eager customers.

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

It's not the government's fault now, it's the population's fault. They're not going out, they're not working, they're not being social, they're afraid of their own shadow, and businesses are still suffering because of it.

I think that is a matter of opinion, and certainly impossible to definitively demonstrate. Up here, it would be very easy to say it remains the fault of the restrictions placed upon these businesses, with their reduced capacities and increased cleaning obligations. They are absolutely not lacking for customers eager to return.

A very good example is found in our tribal owned casinos, who being technically owned and operated under their own law as "sovereign nations", are not beholden to Washington State law as much as other venues, so they reopened very early. They closed in March but most were open again by May. They have been swamped the whole time, with people lining up outside to wait their turn to get in. They turn away more people than they let in.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/casino-opening-line-covid-fife-emerald-queen/281-937f0fe4-42af-4fb0-97e3-4ee9075c7f76

So, no, at least here in Washington, it is really not the people's fault at this point. They are decidedly not staying home and "cowering in place". This is further demonstrated by record overcrowding at any and all outdoor recreation sites that are open, from beaches to trailheads in the mountains. It's getting bad enough that many beaches and trailheads have, in fact, been closed in an effort to keep people from flocking to them in record numbers. Pretty hard to say they are staying home because they are afraid in light of all of this. No - it's entirely the state's "fault" up here, with its extended closures and restrictions. The people are clearly itching to get out, and have shown this everywhere they have been allowed to do so.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

When we open back up we will have new infections come in from overseas.

We can't get people to wear a face mask much less bunker up for 3 weeks.

What do you do with medical workers, fire, police, and utility workers. Phones, internet, shut down?

Your plan is impossible to implement and and does not eliminate the spread of the virus at a later date.

EVERYONE. Not every American, not every able bodied male, EVERYONE.

As for things like internet...either we learn to live without it for 3 weeks like 10 billion souls did, or we sequester a set of employees in every major city, who stay at work for those 3 weeks, and get 4x pay for that. Same with whatever other group you might deem "needed", like fire and police. Go to work, go to sequester zone, repeat, get paid bank. In return, save the entire freaking human race.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

We have long since achieved every milestone our governor originally outlined for our state's reopening. And then some. Quite some time ago. He just keeps raising the bar.



Every such establishment that has reopened around here has been turning people away. Patrons are eager to get in and eat, drink, and be merry. The reduced capacities have made it so that not everyone who would like to patronize is allowed to do so. And yes, many such establishments simply remained closed because it was not worth it to both pay the wait staff, and to also pay the newly required time to clean everything all the time. So it has not been for a lack of customers, it's been the businesses inability to accept eager customers.



I think that is a matter of opinion, and certainly impossible to definitively demonstrate. Up here, it would be very easy to say it remains the fault of the restrictions placed upon these businesses, with their reduced capacities and increased cleaning obligations. They are absolutely not lacking for customers eager to return.

A very good example is found in our tribal owned casinos, who being technically owned and operated under their own law as "sovereign nations", are not beholden to Washington State law as much as other venues, so they reopened very early. They closed in March but most were open again by May. They have been swamped the whole time, with people lining up outside to wait their turn to get in. They turn away more people than they let in.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/casino-opening-line-covid-fife-emerald-queen/281-937f0fe4-42af-4fb0-97e3-4ee9075c7f76

So, no, at least here in Washington, it is really not the people's fault at this point. They are decidedly not staying home and "cowering in place". This is further demonstrated by record overcrowding at any and all outdoor recreation sites that are open, from beaches to trailheads in the mountains. It's getting bad enough that many beaches and trailheads have, in fact, been closed in an effort to keep people from flocking to them in record numbers. Pretty hard to say they are staying home because they are afraid in light of all of this. No - it's entirely the state's "fault" up here, with its extended closures and restrictions. The people are clearly itching to get out, and have shown this everywhere they have been allowed to do so.

We are seeing some very different social reactions. Is it because you guys peaked 2 or 3 months earlier than us? I dunno. The movie theater here that serves food? They're basically giving away tickets, to all sorts of movies (not the new crap, things like Goonies, which all of us would love to see again on a big screen). Free tickets, justpleasebuysomefoodandmaybeabeerandthentipatthee ndbecauseitsallweget

So, we have places open and no one to fill them, while you have people ready to go out, but no where to go. Maybe we need something like an exchange student program...

[Jeff Higgins]

Yes, certainly an interesting difference. Any time anything at all up here becomes "open" once again, it quickly gets overrun. Parks, beaches, hiking trails, restaurants, bars, casinos - you name it. And our governor starts shaking his finger at us in that oh-so-school-marm way - "behave yourselves or I'll shut it down again"... And he has. All that accomplishes, of course, is to send the crowds elsewhere. They certainly don't stay home.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

EVERYONE. Not every American, not every able bodied male, EVERYONE.

As for things like internet...either we learn to live without it for 3 weeks like 10 billion souls did, or we sequester a set of employees in every major city, who stay at work for those 3 weeks, and get 4x pay for that. Same with whatever other group you might deem "needed", like fire and police. Go to work, go to sequester zone, repeat, get paid bank. In return, save the entire freaking human race.

EVERYONE worldwide ain't gonna happen.

[RWebb]

https://slate.com/technology/2020/09/sturgis-rally-covid19-explosion-paper.html

and before anyone asks, she is an epidemiologist, cross-trained in some other things too

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Masks only in Ohio. Everything open but surely limited heads for certain places. .

There are other restrictions. Bars and restaurants have to stop serving booze at 10 PM and tables cleared by 11. Decreased occupancy too. The restrictions in Ohio are are so severe that four congressmen circulated an impeachment petition against our governor. Really. They believe there is no such thing as a pandemic. Which shows you what the country is up against.

[Sooner or later]

She didn't like the study.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by RWebb

https://slate.com/technology/2020/09/sturgis-rally-covid19-explosion-paper.html

and before anyone asks, she is an epidemiologist, cross-trained in some other things too

That is exactly what I said, only she said it far more eloquently, and probably has a bit more credibility.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

There are other restrictions. Bars and restaurants have to stop serving booze at 10 PM and tables cleared by 11. Decreased occupancy too. The restrictions in Ohio are are so severe that four congressmen circulated an impeachment petition against our governor. Really. They believe there is no such thing as a pandemic. Which shows you what the country is up against.

I find it hard to believe that anyone could actually doubt there was a pandemic of historic proportions. I think the argument has now turned to just when we are going to consider this pandemic "over".

Like I said earlier, it now appears that here in Washington, at least, it won't be "over" until our numbers are zero. Zero is, of course, completely unrealistic. So, the efforts to drive the numbers to zero, used as justification to keep any restrictions in place - no matter how "minor" - are starting to rub a lot of people the wrong way. It becomes, or has become, a matter of principle - just how little justification is required to maintain a "state of emergency"?

This was, indeed, initially one of the most threatening emergencies of our lifetimes. Anyone who denies that is a fool. These emergency measures that were employed in every state were more than justified. But many of us believe the "emergency" nature of it has passed. We want the restrictions lifted, no matter how "minor" they may be. Like I said, it's now a matter of principle - we allowed our government, over the course of this emergency, to go beyond its normal authority that we have granted to it. We now want that authority to be relinquished back to us. It's time.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I find it hard to believe that anyone could actually doubt there was a pandemic of historic proportions. I think the argument has now turned to just when we are going to consider this pandemic "over".

Like I said earlier, it now appears that here in Washington, at least, it won't be "over" until our numbers are zero.

It started with zero 10 months ago and grew to half a million from there. I don't think it will be "over" - as in we don't have to take precautions - until there is a viable vaccine. Until then it's a matter of keeping it under control.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I find it hard to believe that anyone could actually doubt there was a pandemic of historic proportions.

Come visit Preble County Ohio. You'll meet many of them who think there neither was nor is a pandemic. They believe it's just a cold (Rush told them so), they believe it's no worse than the flu (Trump told them so), some just plain don't believe it exists, and a large part of our county is a religious group that is so removed from modern life that they probably never heard of it.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

It started with zero 10 months ago and grew to half a million from there. I don't think it will be "over" - as in we don't have to take precautions - until there is a viable vaccine. Until then it's a matter of keeping it under control.

I guess that is where the disagreement lies. Some argue it will not be under control until we have an effective vaccine, so we need to keep the restrictions in place until we have that.

Others argue that we will probably never have an effective vaccine, since it is so closely related to the myriad of "common cold" viruses for which we still don't have any effective vaccines. In light of this, they argue that if we wait for a vaccine, we will be waiting, and under these restrictions, essentially for the foreseeable future. They would rather take their chances.

Yet others argue that the virus has essentially run its course. It has done what all other viruses eventually do, having mutated to the point where it is not nearly as deadly as it was when we were first exposed to it. They point to the plummeting hospitalization rates, and the even more dramatically falling death counts. They argue that the restrictions, while effective initially in slowing the rate of transmission, are no longer having any kind of a measurable affect on its spread.

I subscribe to the last two schools of thought. I think we are at the point where we need to get back to normal life. I don't think we can justify the continued restrictions. The numbers just don't warrant it anymore.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Come visit Preble County Ohio. You'll meet many of them who think there neither was nor is a pandemic. They believe it's just a cold (Rush told them so), they believe it's no worse than the flu (Trump told them so), some just plain don't believe it exists..............

+1 Many of them here as well in my little working/living circle in North Canton.

[RSBob]

I was wrong. Apparently only 300 currently associated cases directly linked to biker-fest. The earlier study was not fully vetted. Don’t see those three words around here much.

[911boost]

Wow, 300 cases?????

Oh the humanity!!!

Jesus

[pavulon]

You do understand how only 300 cases can spread, right?

Originally Posted by 911boost

Wow, 300 cases?????

Oh the humanity!!!

Jesus

[sugarwood]

Belief in COVID‐19 Conspiracy Theories Reduces Social Distancing over Time

To date, the US is the country with the greatest number of deaths caused by COVID‐19, and in light of these findings, conspiracy beliefs likely contributed to this.

https://iaap-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/aphw.12223

[Jeff Higgins]

American obesity, overall poor health, and lack of discipline contributed a great deal more to it. That, and a massive population of elderly clinging to life, lives being artificially prolonged through every medical means known to man.