Let's Talk About Lever Spoons

[Jeff Higgins]

If you want a loading gate on the side of the action and side ejection, I believe that limits you to the Model 1894 Marlin. Not that that is any kind of a "limitation" - IMHO, the best pistol caliber lever gun ever made.

And yes, rifling twist rate can be an issue. Back when this idea was still new (1870's), these rounds fired very light for caliber bullets that were very short in length. Darn near round balls, really. The .44-40, for example, fired a 200 grain bullet, which is exceedingly light for a .44 caliber projectile. And it was very soft, pure lead. So the idea was that we really did not have to spin it very fast to stabilize it, and we were likewise afraid of "stripping" the rifling, or skipping right over it because the soft bullet failed to grip that rifling. So twist rates were on the order of one turn in 38 inches. Think about that for a moment - modern AR 15's meant to shoot heavy for caliber bullets routinely go with one in 7 inch twists. The longer the bullet, the faster we must spin it to stabilize it.

So, essentially, this 1:38" twist is pretty much "obsolete" in today's terms. If we want to shoot heavier bullets, we need a much faster twist. Today's "standard" for .44 magnum is 240 grains. .45 Colt has always been about 255 grains. And, unfortunately, traditions die hard in this firearms world. So even though there is really no "traditional" twist rate for .45 Colt lever guns (since we did not have them until late in the 20th century), for whatever reason, manufacturers have held to the traditional 1:38" rate held over from the .44-40.

Until now... Miroku, the Japanese licensee manufacturing Winchester lever guns, has corrected this problem and has gone with a 1:22" twist. But, unfortunately, only in the .44 (and .357) magnum. Their .45 Colt Model 92's still have the slower twist. Which isn't the end of the world, really - they still shoot standard bullet weights in the .45 Colt quite well. They may not stabilize the 300 grain and heavier stuff but, well, that won't be an issue for you and your Vaquero.

You see, your "New Model" Vaquero is about the same size, and strength, as the old Colt Peacemaker. It is much smaller than, and not as strong as, the Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk. The first gen Vaqueros were built on those larger frames, and the Coboy Action crowd hated them, soon convincing Ruger to "downsize" it to its present size. As a result, you don't get to shoot those monster 300 grain and heavier loads out of your Vaquero anyway. So if you want ammo commonality, and you want to shoot the same loads out of the lever gun that your revolver can shoot, you need to stick with "Colt safe" loads anyway. In both. Which, like I said, is just fine anyway. A "standard" .45 Colt load is all we really need for anything a sixgun should ever be asked to do, and it only gets better in a rifle.

So, don't worry about the "strength" of either firearm, don't worry about the twist rate - just shoot standard velocity, standard weight .45 Colt loads in both and live happily ever after. Both firearms will serve you quite well.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

At a gun auction I handled a couple of Miroku lever guns. Beautifully made and the action was a smooth as silk.

That's who made the Browning B-92.

[aigel]

I would not go big game hunting with a handgun caliber in a rifle. It will always be a compromise compared to a rifle caliber. If 30-30 is too 'modern'. go with a 45-70 instead. Guys like Jeff may be able to do well with excellent shot placement and picking the perfect loads or factory ammo, but the average guy will benefit from a flatter shooting harder hitting rifle cartridge out of a rifle.

G

[red-beard]

Ballistics by the inch basically shows that in .357 and .44 Magnum, by the time you get to 16 inches, the velocity is maxed out. This may not be true for Jeff's handloads, using powder designed for longer barrels. But factory ammo, I think you'll find that past 16" the pistol stuff doesn't fly faster.

That said, I really want an 1894 Marlin 16" in .357 Magnum. That is just about unobtanium right now. My next choice is The Rossi 16" with standard lever, preferably in stainless. But I also really like the Winchester breakdown which would fit my Bug Out Bag better.

With infinite money, I would also like a .44 magnum S&W plus a .44 Magnum lever gun. But then I'd have to stock ANOTHER caliber of ammo.

BTW, I love my Winchester 1894 in 30-30. It was well loved by the previous owner. It is a post WWII that I believe we finally figured out was a 1947 build.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by aigel

I would not go big game hunting with a handgun caliber in a rifle. It will always be a compromise compared to a rifle caliber. If 30-30 is too 'modern'. go with a 45-70 instead. Guys like Jeff may be able to do well with excellent shot placement and picking the perfect loads or factory ammo, but the average guy will benefit from a flatter shooting harder hitting rifle cartridge out of a rifle.

G

"A man has got to know his limitations..."

Making a conscious decision to handicap one's self with regards to hunting method, be it bow hunting, muzzle loader hunting, handgun hunting, or something similar is a pretty serious decision to make. The use of a pistol caliber lever gun may not be as extreme as, say, bow hunting, but it still represents a pretty serious limitation compared to more powerful, higher velocity, flatter shooting rifle calibers. If one isn't willing or able to make a commitment to practice, and a commitment to pass up an awful lot of opportunities that are beyond the capabilities of the weapon of choice, then one has no business hunting with these kinds of arms.

I grew up hunting with modern, bolt action, scoped rifles. It soon got to be "too easy", and I was looking for greater challenges. I found what I was looking for initially with muzzle loaders, taking advantage of the special seasons offered for their use. It was a relatively easy commitment to make, since my state, at the time, allowed us to hunt all of our deer and elk seasons (bow, muzzle loader, and modern firearm), so long as we used the proper weapon. If I didn't get anything with the muzzle loader, I could just head out for the modern rifle season and have another chance. Then, for whatever reason, some 30-odd years ago they switched to making us choose just one method and season for any given year. And they dramatically shortened muzzle loading seasons while cutting the number of open units in half as well. All of it just rendered our short, scattered muzzle loading seasons rather less than appealing. They kind of forced my hand...

So it was back to the modern firearms seasons. I could still use the muzzle loader during those seasons, but now I was looking for something different again. Enter the big bore revolver. Now here was a real challenge... The amount of work involved in getting proficient enough to be confident hunting with one proved to be far, far more than I ever could have imagined. Fortunately for me, I had a rather stern mentor who would not "allow" me to go hunting with my revolver until he was satisfied with my proficiency.

I understand the limitations imposed by the choices I have made. Hell, I went looking for those limitations. I wanted them. I welcomed them. I kind of have to think that unless one is going in with that kind of an attitude, one is better off using the most effective weapon possible. Make no mistake, a pistol caliber lever gun can be very effective - certainly more effective than my revolvers - but one has to understand, and work within, its limitations.

[flipper35]

If you decide I would really recommend a peep or rear aperture sight. Our daughter has one on her Marlin 30-30 and in the woods it is great. She was out of state last season and our 11 year old son borrowed it, with her permission of course. He was able to acquire the target easy as well but we only saw some doe in the brush at 60 yards so no clear shot and some at 275 yards and they would not come closer.

Plus, they look good on a lever action.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by flipper35

If you decide I would really recommend a peep or rear aperture sight. Our daughter has one on her Marlin 30-30 and in the woods it is great. She was out of state last season and our 11 year old son borrowed it, with her permission of course. He was able to acquire the target easy as well but we only saw some doe in the brush at 60 yards so no clear shot and some at 275 yards and they would not come closer.

Plus, they look good on a lever action.

This reminded me, I have a tang sight for a Savage 99 (which is another nice lever gun) which I was going to put on Gunbroker but will sell for a good price if any Pelican is interested.

[Jeff Higgins]

Yes, definitely - peep sights are a vast improvement on these rifles over their issue open sights. They can be a little "dark" for use during twilight hours in the woods, but most of them have apertures that are easily removed, turning them into erstwhile "ghost ring" sights that let an awful lot of light through them. I find that within normal, "ethical" hunting ranges, peep sights are every bit as easy to use as any scope. And, boy, they sure make the rifle a whole lot handier and easier to carry. And they never fog up - a big issue up here in the "Pacific North Wet".

Early 1950's manufacture Savage 99 in .300 Savage with an original Marble's "Game Getter" rear sight. Essentially a lever action .308, a wonderful, entirely viable 200+ yard deer rifle:



Winchester Model 71 in .348 Winchester sporting a Williams peep. I like these because they feature quarter minute click adjustments:



One of the newer manufacturers, Skinner, as shown on a Ruger #1 in .375 H&H Magnum. These are a little less precise in their adjustments, but are one tough little sight:

[flipper35]

My daughter fell on the ice with her Skinners and the front blade bent but the rear is still solid. Andy is a good guy there.

[Superman]

I have never used anything but 30-06 for big game hunting, but I have also not taken many shots outside the range of peep sights and I think the .45 Colt cartridge is enough to get the job done. I recall Dr. Higgins saying this round will go through a deer lengthwise.

When my grandfather passed, he had a single-shot 30-06 with no scope, for big game hunting. According to legend, he had never needed more than one shot to kill a deer or elk. He killed a lot of them. Based on my knowledge of him and my father and his brothers, this story is believable.

[flipper35]

30-06 is a good round, been around forever. 30-30 has taken a lot of deer as well as I am sure .45 Cold has.

I have a S&W in .45 Colt I carry in the thick woods and briars so I don't have to worry about where the rifle is pointing. A long shot in those areas would be less than 20 yards though.

My daughter's first deer was with the 30-30 with Skinner peeps and 165 yards, with a monopod in a ground stand, shortly after her leg was on fire.

[flatbutt]

Gunbroker has a few .357 levers but good golly the prices are waaaay high!

[tabs]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

Gunbroker has a few .357 levers but good golly the prices are waaaay high!

Everything is "WAY HIGH."

[Superman]

If a civil war breaks out, I might go to Jeff's house. His spoon collection boggles my tiny brain. I just hope he doesn't shoot me.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Superman

If a civil war breaks out, I might go to Jeff's house. His spoon collection boggles my tiny brain. I just hope he doesn't shoot me.

Don't worry Supe, I have no kryptonite bullets. Just plain old lead wheel weights. They would probably have a hard time getting through a carbon fiber cape...

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Don't worry Supe, I have no kryptonite bullets. Just plain old lead wheel weights. They would probably have a hard time getting through a carbon fiber cape...

It would still hurt like a, well, it would hurt a lot.

[dmcummins]

I use to go squirrel hunting with my dad and uncles. Lever actions using 22 shorts were the preferred method. The 9422 was my dads. I bought him the .17 but he never went hunting with it. We put the cheap scope on and sighted it in, he never shot it again. Unfortunately he is in assisted living these days.

[Superman]

Finally got this fish in the boat after three weeks waiting and....seriously.....two and a half hours of paperwork and firearm safety course. As a simple boy from Idaho, I just have a hard time understanding some things.

The build quality is just as high as they say. Excellent fit and finish, smooth action....beyond expectations. Bluing is like nothing I have ever seen. Not blotchy like the rest. Those bright-metal rectangles atop the receiver thingie are pins. Apparently the action on this thing is designed to not fail. There never was a weak point in these 1892s but if there were, it has been fixed. Here she is cleaned, oiled and ready for range time. Can't wait.

[Superman]

Chambered in .45 Colt.

[fanaudical]

Very nice! Brand new? Or gently used?

I'm still looking for a .357...