Why not hydrogen?

[Dixie]

Recent threads regarding EVs got me thinking. Whatever happened to the idea of hydrogen fuel cell cars? I'd think eliminating heavy batteries, and lengthy charging times, would make these a much better choice.

So, why aren't we seeing/hearing about fuel cell cars anymore?

[908/930]

Hydrogen is still being looked at, BMW has been working on it for about 30 years, testing the IX5 hydrogen now. There is a hydrogen station for cars now in Saanich BC and more in the works.

[flatbutt]

One of the arguments against H2 involves production. Natural gas and oil account for nearly 3/4 of hydrogen produced today. The remainder comes from coal and water.

Cannibalizing methane doesn't make sense. Maybe H2 is a by-product of the natural gas process...IDK. I'd guess that given the flares burning at the top of fuel processing plants that gas is a by-product of that process as well. And coal...well we know about that too.

So, my less than thorough understanding leaves me with the PoV that in order to produce H2 we still need fossil fuels.

[Steve Carlton]

It's a good concept, but the infrastructure only exists in the SF bay area and southern CA. From the start, the system has been plagued with shutdowns and lack of hydrogen and the stations. Now hydrogen has skyrocketed and it looks like BEVs and PHEVs are gaining the momentum.

I got a CPO Mirai in 1/2021 for $12K and it came with $15K worth of hydrogen on a debit card. To drive that same distance on gas at 30mpg with regular gas would have cost around $6-7K, though. But I drove 55,000 miles in that car for free, although service every 5,000 miles at Toyota dealers authorized to work on them was a hassle and not cheap for some of the visits. When I got it, hydrogen was $16/kilogram. It drifted down to $13/kilo, then about a year ago went to $20, then $30, then $36 at most stations.

Bottom line, if you live or work near hydrogen, it's a good way to go overall. The new Mirai looks like a Lexus, and has more power and range (which was never great). You could get a $54K new one for net low $20Ks after all the credits PLUS a $15K debit card.

Another thing is the fuel tanks are not recommended to be used after 15 years, so there's a sunset on those cars. This applied to the first generation Mirai, not sure about the second gen.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-toyota-mirai-fcev-yearlong-test-review-verdict/

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I think Toyota is the only major player in H2. Just the other day the government announced $7 billion for seven regional H2 hubs.

admin unveils $7 billion plan for regional hydrogen "hubs"

[unclebilly]

I did a ton of work on this 23 years ago and have the patents to prove I was there…

The issue is that compressed hydrogen has terrible energy density. Liquid hydrogen is too energy intensive to liquify.

Fuel cells that run on hydrocarbons make more sense but this pushes the technology towards Solid Oxide Fuel Cells - 4 of my fuel cell stacks were used in the trunk of a hydrogen powered BMW in 2000-2001…

Pem fuel cells have come a long way but there are still water production issues.

[Steve Carlton]

Honda used to have a Clarity fuel cell. They’re bringing out a CR-V next year. Hyundai makes a few. I think Kia used to. I don’t know why they bother.

[oldE]

Harry's Garage has done a couple of videos on JCB's research into hydrogen for industrial machines. I confess I didn't watch them, having little interest.

Best
Les

[Steve Carlton]

My username for Toyota Financial Services was Hindenburg.

[GH85Carrera]

The production of hydrogen itself in a usable form for a car is the problem.

Most of the hydrogen now comes from splitting the hydrocarbon of natural gas. So strip out the hydrogen and you have the carbon part left. Yea, good old CO2, what happens, to that is the one big issue. So yea, burning hydrogen is pollution free, but making it produces lots of bad pookie CO2.

Or we can use electricity to make hydrogen from water. Then you only have oxygen as the main byproduct, and no bug deal. But what source of electricity is used to make the hydrogen? The only logical choice is nuclear so just left over nuclear waste. Until we figure out fusion, and that has been 20 years out for the last 50 years. Hydroelectric is clean, if you ignore the giant dams and energy needed to make the dam, and the environmental damage of damming a river.

In the end, it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than we get back from it. Why bother with the hydrogen production, and skip that step and use the energy for the transportation in the first place.

[Steve Carlton]

What's wrong with pursuing green hydrogen with renewable electricity from wind or solar power? Obviously, we presently could use that electricity elsewhere- just thinking out loud.

If you use electricity directly for transportation, then you're back to the battery problem until a new battery technology comes out.

I've hear hydrogen might be better suited to large trucks and industrial use. It probably makes more sense to propel cars with electricity. We already need infrastructure for that, and a clean source of the electricity.

I do wonder why fuel cells even got started in cars. See how it works out in CA as a test?

[Chocaholic]

An alternative that Porsche has been working on is synthetic fuel. Can be used in any IC engine and minimal emissions. Been a while…but if production and cost could be managed, it seemed a great alternative. And can be dispensed via existing gasoline infrastructure.

[Steve Carlton]

Is production of Porsche's synthetic fuel clean?

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Is production of Porsche's synthetic fuel clean?

Most recent update I could find is from July:

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2023/sustainability/porsche-how-to-make-efuels-truly-sustainable-christophorus-407-33013.html

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

My username for Toyota Financial Services was Hindenburg.

ROFLMAO!

Every time hydrogen comes up, I think "that sounds interesting, and makes me think of the Hindenburg." I can't imagine that they have figured out how to make it safe.

I've seen several car fires (probably ~10). Only once was one accompanied by an explosion. That one came after the car had been burning for quite a while (at least 5-10 mins, maybe 15), and was much smaller than anything in a movie. Every car fire that I've ever seen has been relatively slow to consume/engulf the car.

I think we've seen enough electric car fires to know that they are pretty darn fast and I don't want to be anywhere near one.

I've never seen or heard of a hydrogen fire (other than the Hindenburg), but I'm guessing they could be pretty ugly pretty quickly.

[Steve Carlton]

[rcooled]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Is production of Porsche's synthetic fuel clean?

Lots of electricity needed to brew the stuff. Porsche's pilot plant utilizes wind generators and is located down in the southern part of Chile, where the wind blows 24/7.

And when used to fuel vehicles, CO2 is still present in the exhaust, but if the carbon required to make the fuel is extracted from the atmosphere, proponents say it's pretty much a wash. No reduction in CO2 that's already here, but not adding any significant amount either.

Synthetic fuel used in the ICE part of a hybrid drive system might be worth looking at...especially for larger vehicles.

[otto_kretschmer]

Hydrogen isn't a source of energy. Its a medium to convert one type of energy into another (and a poor one)

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by otto_kretschmer

Hydrogen isn't a source of energy. Its a medium to convert one type of energy into another (and a poor one)

Well, there is the sun and all the stars.

[Steve Carlton]

Fusion is serious business.