Counterfeit titanium in jets

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Paul T

Absolutely right….we never stood a chance to compete on labor costs. Crazy thing is, everyone could see this coming 40 yrs ago, but here we are. Now the consumer is addicted to cheap, replaceable goods and we will never go back. Everything is a commodity. It’s all a numbers game these days, the product hardly matters. There is no pride in “building” something, just make some quick $$ and get out.

eh, everyone is doom and gloom about outsourcing, but that was the 90s. we are 30 years past outsourcing. this might still be a problem with like lots of hand handled things, like clothes production, but outside of those specific instances, its not cheaper to make things overseas when you look at the quality issues, and the amount of overhead and double checking you need to do in order to insure quality.

you know, all the stuff boeing doesnt do.

so for high tech stuff, its not cheaper because of labor costs to do things overseas. thats why we are seeing so much more insourcing.

we are way past outsourcing, what has happened to boeing, is just the tip of ice berg in terms of corporate rot, american companies being sold out, hollowed out, and destroyed, for quarterly profits. companies that took generations to build. they only take a few years to destroy. rise and repeat.

until we decide that the economy is for people, not money, we are going to have this issue. we always talk about job creation, but the purpose of capital is to destroy jobs. until we figure out that our economy is so biased in favor of capital, and against value creation through labor ... this will continue to happen. like how we biased the entire market in favor of capital in the last 3 generations, we need to undo that, and instead bias value producing labor over that.

the biggest thing that we need to do: make stock buy backs illegal. its absurd they were ever legal in the first place.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

until we decide that the economy is for people, not money, we are going to have this issue.

the biggest thing that we need to do: make stock buy backs illegal. its absurd they were ever legal in the first place.

I agree with #1, but I don't see how we can unwind things. Greed exists, even if's only a small percentage of the population, it drives the market.

Stock buybacks are an acceptable use of excess corporate cash IMO. It's basically saying 'our stock is underpriced, we think it's the best investment available to us'. The result of a ban would be more corporate takeovers, the cash won't/can't sit there.

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

I agree with #1, but I don't see how we can unwind things. Greed exists, even if's only a small percentage of the population, it drives the market.

I might say that we could return to taxing stock options as income, not capital gains, and increasing top tax rates to make extreme executive payments unpalatable for stockholders, but I can only imagine the lobbying bucks going to congress if that were going to be on the table.

[berettafan]

These challenges so well stated by CP require leadership and integrity to be addressed. We have none of that in DC. Why does DC matter? Because man can always be counted on to be a greedy, horny little **** and it is the job of our gov't to protect us from our basest instincts.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

I agree with #1, but I don't see how we can unwind things. Greed exists, even if's only a small percentage of the population, it drives the market.

Stock buybacks are an acceptable use of excess corporate cash IMO. It's basically saying 'our stock is underpriced, we think it's the best investment available to us'. The result of a ban would be more corporate takeovers, the cash won't/can't sit there.

we get to make up the rules of the world.

we dont have to just accept the world as it is.

stock buy backs were illegal, for obvious reasons, until the 1980s.

this is just one example of how we need to rebuild the world to make the economy serve us, instead of capital.

[David Inc.]

Oh no.... DC? Taxes? Not PARF, NO! Not PARF!

[Paul T]

lol, where good threads go to die!

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

Oh no.... DC? Taxes? Not PARF, NO! Not PARF!

i mean if we want to talk about tax policy, another no brainer that anyone and everyone should support is getting rid of capital gains tax, and taxing it as normal income, at normal income tax rates.

because right now, its ~15% cheaper to do nothing, and be rich, and gut American companies, than it is to get off your ass and do some actual work. because income from working, is taxed at basically double the rate that doing nothing is taxed at.

it is obvious to casual observer that generations of rewarding incomes for doing nothing, while punishing laborers with higher taxes for you know ... doing things ... probably leads to a skewed capital/labor market.

if we want to get go even farther ... if labor is more important than capital, which it is, why would we tax them equally? why wouldnt we seek to reduce the tax burden on those actually doing things, and punish those who dont do things? ie, why isnt capital gains tax actually higher than income tax? it should be.

[David Inc.]

Because labor doesn't get a real seat at the table anymore, and we're divided over social issues.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

Because labor doesn't get a real seat at the table anymore, and we're divided over social issues.

yup.

we built the world wrong guys.

we should probably at least try to fix it.

[David Inc.]

But the job creators, man. Why doesn't anyone look out for the job creators.

[Paul T]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

i mean if we want to talk about tax policy, another no brainer that anyone and everyone should support is getting rid of capital gains tax, and taxing it as normal income, at normal income tax rates.

because right now, its ~15% cheaper to do nothing, and be rich, and gut American companies, than it is to get off your ass and do some actual work. because income from working, is taxed at basically double the rate that doing nothing is taxed at.

it is obvious to casual observer that generations of rewarding incomes for doing nothing, while punishing laborers with higher taxes for you know ... doing things ... probably leads to a skewed capital/labor market.

if we want to get go even farther ... if labor is more important than capital, which it is, why would we tax them equally? why wouldnt we seek to reduce the tax burden on those actually doing things, and punish those who dont do things? ie, why isnt capital gains tax actually higher than income tax? it should be.

idk if I agree with that….those making a capital investment in business or whatever it may be are putting money at risk, and (hopefully) adding jobs and adding to GDP along the way. The traditional argument is that LTCG tax is lower to encourage this investment. Now, you may have a point with regard to carried interest tax rates, which primarily benefit pure financial risk takers, and (generally) only kick in when the original investment $$ is recouped, along with some nominal return (hence, no more risk). I can see the argument why that should be taxed as ordinary income.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

this.

venture capital destroyed quality in america.

the purpose of a business shouldn't be profitability, it should be sustained value creation. the focus on profitability means you just gut everything, make a bunch of money, and destroy what someone else took a lifetime to build. you destroy it in 5-10 years, profit handsomely, and then move on to the next company that someone took a lifetime to build. and they built that business over a lifetime with sustained value creation.

labor builds, capital destroys.

It is/has always been about profit, if not why bother. I had an uncle who had several larger car dealerships. He has passed on many years ago and my family knows the car business well. Every department was a profit center. when his numbers didn't look right, I remember him saying, "do you think there is a red cross flag in the front of my store?". I knew what that meant.

There is an essentially a 3 yr corporate cycle in which high level management looks to get promoted either within the company or move outside of the company for a better position. During this period, you want to score home runs by any means. And if the company gets sold, there are consultants who create a playbook to get these savings in with a 2 yr ROI or less. McKensey comes to mind - and they have a reputation.

These folks don't care where it is made. During my last year at the company I worked for, they have a plan (and it is still in process) to move 40 million in parts offshore in 2 years. Savings: $80 million and 70 heads. The time and dollars to move just don't make sense but no one, internally, will say otherwise. And if it doesn't succeed, "someone will fall on the sword". I had many reasons for retiring, this was one of many.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Paul T

idk if I agree with that….those making a capital investment in business or whatever it may be are putting money at risk, and (hopefully) adding jobs and adding to GDP along the way. The traditional argument is that LTCG tax is lower to encourage this investment. Now, you may have a point with regard to carried interest tax rates, which primarily benefit pure financial risk takers, and (generally) only kick in when the original investment $$ is recouped, along with some nominal return (hence, no more risk). I can see the argument why that should be taxed as ordinary income.

it should at least be taxed as normal income.

again, the reason we see the "financialization" of the economy (ie, banking and accounting making more money than actually building things), is because of policies like this. its cheaper to make money with money, than it is to make money, by like, actually providing value ,and building things.

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

Isn't this made in USA?
Does this apply to the rest of Toyotas?

Even the beloved Lexus brand is affected…

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/lexus-lx-and-toyota-tundra-recalled-due-to-debris-in-engines-a4957076545/#:~:text=Toyota%20Motor%20Sales%20is%20recalling,g roup%20involved%20have%20the%20defect.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

Because labor doesn't get a real seat at the table anymore, and we're divided over social issues.

Union labor got bashed in the private sector. Lazy, overpaid, pensions, benefits, political party affiliation. This is a big reason automotive moved to southern states. And most supported it. Everyone complained about it. It got to the level of 6%.

However, labor rates across the country somewhat equalized which prompted companies to continue looking for cheaper labor offshore.

My comments thru op is I never experience the good ol days. Business is global, technology is shared, or copied - this is the world we live in. We moved from the original agriculture country to a world of manufacturing during the industrial revolution and in the 70s to a service economy. And it is going to change again with AI.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by jcommin

It is/has always been about profit, if not why bother.

no it hasnt. and no it isnt. well, certainly not maximization of profit.

building a business isn't about profit, its about meeting a need, providing a value, and building a relationship. its not about about maximizing profits on every transaction and maximizing quarterly profits. building a business takes decades.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by jcommin

Union labor got bashed in the private sector. Lazy, overpaid, pensions, benefits, political party affiliation. This is a big reason automotive moved to southern states. And most supported it. Everyone complained about it. It got to the level of 6%.

However, labor rates across the country somewhat equalized which prompted companies to continue looking for cheaper labor offshore.

My comments thru op is I never experience the good ol days. Business is global, technology is shared, or copied - this is the world we live in. We moved from the original agriculture country to a world of manufacturing during the industrial revolution and in the 70s to a service economy. And it is going to change again with AI.

dunno if you've seen the news, but UAW keeps on winning, more plants, more people, and even non-union plants are seeing big wage and conditions improvement to prevent unionization.

i've always herd the horror stories about unions, but ive never seen any of it, and i work with unions occationally. makes me skeptical of any of these stories, esp since they always seem to have been started by non-workers ... when i have had bad interactions with a union, its always because the company is trying to take advantage, and the union is correctly pointing out their error. thats not on me, thats on the company. if you've had bad interactions with union people, dont blame the union, blame the company for having created the union by treating its people badly, and continuing to try to do that. the union exists as a response to bad management.



there is also the macro data, showing pretty conclusively the death of middle class was right when laws started crippling unions .... and conversely data showing hte middle class doing better when there is higher union membership.

its pretty obvious that supporting unions and union popularity improves outcomes for the middle class, and thus is part of supporting labor, as opposed to capital. like this isnt a mystery or a topic of debate, we did it, we have the data, we know what happens.

[berettafan]

epic series of posts from CP.

What a rare thing to see someone cheer for quality of life improvements than don't always = the highest possible profit.

I will say what is killing unions is economics. defined benefit pensions. you don't get them back in any meaningful way (or with any meaningful member benefits) without artificial interference by the gov't.

[mb911]

Wow what a great thread. I have been teaching welding trades for 23 years and prior to that in industry. I have really enjoyed this Thread and appreciate the perspectives. I can tell you that my experience as an aerospace welder fabricator was quality, quality, quality as number 1. We spend so much time ensuring that every part was to all the drawings, multiple NDT methods etc. This was 30 years ago and that company still operates the same way to this day. They are a slow and steady wins the race company that employs 40ish people.

In my current job we train high level welders to go into the trades like manufacturing, Steamfitters, Ironworkers, boiler makers, Elevator erectors ,etc. I can tell you from my experience that the union trades company's are 100% all about job done right. They don't do things half assed. It is either right or not done at all. The manufactures are 50/50 on this. We work with some great manufactures that expect 90+% first pass yields and nothing goes out the door that is even suspect. The other 50% we work with make non critical type of components like chairs/tables/ storage carts, lock mechanisms, lighting, etc.

Maybe it is somewhat a location type of thing? Maybe a size of the company type of thing? I am not sure but at least in our region quality is king in the sectors we provide trained workers to