Another Swift Boat combat memory turns fuzzy.

[Seahawk]

I find this whole thread interesting...I am an active duty navy pilot, O-6, who has had the opportunity to engage in combat, first during the escorts of the re-flagged Kuwatti Tankers (Ernest Will) and subsequently during DS/DS the First.
I frankly could care less if a presidential candidate has served in the military. There is simply no coorelation between military service and the ability to make correct and cogent policy; to work through the steps required to ultimately send or not send men and women into combat in a compelling, honest manner.
On this one issue, what I do care about is the ability of the president to understand the nature of military service and respect the young men and women (especially the enlisted ranks) who will carry out the nations will. Pay them, equip them, train them and support them...very little else matters.
I was commissioned in 1983 and the only president during my career who has understood this was Reagan, who's military service never extended beyond a movie set back lot. Spare me the Beruit/Grenada homilies, BTW.

It didn't matter to me if Herbert Walker flew for the navy in WWII any more than it did Clinton flying BOAC to study during Vietnam.

Issues, and the candidates positions on those that matter most to me are what is important, not the ability lead men and women in battle. The president can rely on the true professionals for that.

[Mulholland]

Originally "seared...seared" in techweenie's mind

You guys aren't even original...weak.

[Mule]

Good post Seahawk. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on why Kerry is making his 4 mo. combat tour the centerpeice of his campaign.

[island911]

Originally "seared...seared" in techweenie's mind

ROFL

and you're right. . .not even original.

Mul, note; because the lib's have gone into BIG-baby mode, we're now using the fullsize seal . . .didn't you get the memo?

[SteveStromberg]

Larry Thurlow
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40037

[Mulholland]

Responding to a Washington Post article questioning his veracity, an eyewitness critic of John Kerry's war record insists military records cited in the story are based on a fraudulent after-action report by Kerry himself.

This is precisely why "campaign finance reform" is so incredibly dangerous to America...The people's right to "freedom of speech" is gagged and big-media is allowed to lie and give free propaganda to the Democrats.

Good job Washington Post...intrepid water carrying.

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by Seahawk
Issues, and the candidates positions on those that matter most to me are what is important, not the ability lead men and women in battle. The president can rely on the true professionals for that.

You are right...John Kerry is a communist and lost Vietnam for us, not to mention the most socialist Senator in the Senate and is actively impugning Swift Boat Vets for telling America what a POS he is.

[Seahawk]

Mule,

I admire him for his service during his tour of duty in Vietnam. I don't think I would have had the onions for Swift boats. So in that sense I have no issue with Kerry. I have seen good guys act poorly in much less trying circumstances in order to circumvent their duty.
His behavior after his tour of duty troubles me, not for the bluster or grandstanding, rather for the impact it had on those still serving, especially POWs. Spend two minutes with a POW from Vietnam and their visceral distain for Jane Fonda and her ilk becomes apparent. They suffered for her actions. Doubt is a very powerful enemy during war. For Kerry not to know that at a certain level he may have been helping the enemy buttress the fear and doubt in everyone involved in war, including his shipmates, is unfortunate and telling.
Lastly, two of my very good friends were in the "Brown Water" navy during Vietnam, one a Huey pilot with HAL 4 and the other an enlisted man on Swift boats. In addition, my father fought in Korea as an airborne ranger. They never, ever brag. I know it's trite, but that is exactly what makes them so cool.

Well, so what, really. I look at his senate voting record, listen to the rhetoric, compare his stated values and compare them to mine and try and find a reason to vote for him and not GW.
The last thing I care about is his service in Vietnam...I care about what he did subsequently.

[Superman]

Thanks for all that, Seahawk. I hope I did not offend with my Beirut story, but my point was similar to yours. Politics and military are two very different things. Different professionals in each. The former's methods should be exhausted before invoking the second. And once invoked, war should be left to the professionals. If a president were going to try to tell our armed forces HOW to fight a war, then he'd need military skill. Otherwise, no.

[Mulholland]

Fighting FOR the communists does not count as military experience.

The Democrats have never been a friend to the military. It is a farce to believe otherwise.

[CamB]

Originally posted by Mulholland
Responding to a Washington Post article questioning his veracity, an eyewitness critic of John Kerry's war record insists military records cited in the story are based on a fraudulent after-action report by Kerry himself.

This is precisely why "campaign finance reform" is so incredibly dangerous to America...The people's right to "freedom of speech" is gagged and big-media is allowed to lie and give free propaganda to the Democrats.

Good job Washington Post...intrepid water carrying.

Originally posted by Mulholland
You are right...John Kerry is a communist and lost Vietnam for us, not to mention the most socialist Senator in the Senate and is actively impugning Swift Boat Vets for telling America what a POS he is.

Two posts, almost zero facts.

You just vilified the Washington Post for relying on official records, rather than tracking down a partisan critic to quite probably lie about their veracity. You then use this as evidence that the Washington Post is partisan and lying.

Second, Johjn Kerry is:

- not communist
- did not lose Vietnam
- got to be close to the most liberal Senator in the Senate, although I have seen nothing to prove he is "socialist"

You are right and wrong about the SBVfT - his campaign is fairly actively impugning them for making what he considers to be false or misleading accusations. What do you expect?

[CamB]

Originally posted by SteveStromberg
And have W 88 ICBM's pointing at us NOW.

Why are you worried about this? Who cares - they won't ever use them.

[Seahawk]

Superman,

No offense taken. As you can see by my number of posts, I read more than I write...and while I have issues with many of your stated positions, your delivery is good to go. I have never been less off for rising to a challenge.
The fact that trying to find parts and advice for my 911S occasioned an entry to this forum has been a pleasure.

[on-ramp]

Kerry won three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and Silver Star for Vietnam War combat.

Bush served stateside in the Texas Air National Guard.

enough said.

can't wait for the ****ing debates....w is gonna get ripped to shreds, no teleprompters allowed in debates.

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by on-ramp
Kerry won three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and Silver Star for Vietnam War combat.

Bush served stateside in the Texas Air National Guard.

enough said.

Enough said because anything else would disclose the lack of substance of your talking points.

3 PHs, Bronze star and Silver star IN FOUR MONTHS?...Incredible...As 250 Swift Boat Veterans will attest (minus those paid for by Kerry). If the medals were legit why doesn't Kerry release his records?...Because he has something to hide perhaps?...Why would a war hero throw his medals away in contempt, join the pro-communist anti-war movement, lie about wide-spread corporate attrocities and then after he has secured office tout his record as a "war hero?"

Kerry has a record he has lied about. He, in effect, aided and abetted the communists in Vietnam and ushered in a totalitarian hell-hole ever since...He turned his back on the POW/MIAs. His cousin received a contract with Vietnam after the "normalization." Kerry has voted against a majority of military spending bills. He has attacked Reagan and Bush during war-time. He has befriended people like Castro and Chavez. He married 2 millionaires and he is currently giving aid and comfort to Islamofascists by working diligently at dividing this nation for political power.

can't wait for the ****ing debates....w is gonna get ripped to shreds, no teleprompters allowed in debates.

Me too...Cannot wait to see Cheney spank Edwards and Dumbya savage Kerry...Precisely what will happen.

[CamB]

he is currently giving aid and comfort to Islamofascists by working diligently at dividing this nation for political power.

Why do you put stuff like this in? I swear it is to wind people up.

He's taking part in a presidential race. To become president, he must win votes. To win votes, he must convince people to vote for him, and thus NOT for the current president. This is not "dividing the nation", it is how democracy works.

[techweenie]

Cam, only one problem: you're assuming Mul wants democracy.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by CamB
he is currently giving aid and comfort to Islamofascists by working diligently at dividing this nation for political power.

Why do you put stuff like this in? I swear it is to wind people up.

good question.
Kerry is in the same league as Jane Fonda when it comes to hating some 'Nam anti-war people. The extended death and hardship that those hated people have caused is still lingering in many 'Nam vets, their families, their friends, and those that respect them.

Some guys have a longer case of syntax than me.

[SteveStromberg]

CAM See:
Iran threatens strike against U.S., Israel
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40045

[JonSeigel]

More on the Swift Boat smear
Friday, August 20, 2004

By Mike Thomas

The New York Times has what should be the final word
on the slimy Swift Boat Liars for Bush story.

This comes just a day after the Washington Post exposed one of Kerry’s chief critics as a liar. Larry Thurlow, who commanded another swift boat during the incident when Kerry earned his Bronze Star, is contradicted by the military records that document his own Bronze Star that was earned on the same day. Thurlow has tried to claim that there was no enemy fire during the incident when Kerry fished James Rassmann out of the water, contradicting both Kerry and Rassmann and every other member of Kerry’s swift boat crew. Now, we find that the military records for Thurlow’s own Bronze Star make reference to enemy fire directed at all the swift boats at that time.
In response, Thurlow now makes the laughable suggestion that Kerry was responsible for writing up his commendation. How sad that this guy, who is by all rights a legitimate war hero, would stoop to defaming his own commendations in an effort to score political points against Kerry. Sad and pathetic.

But back to the NY Times piece. They start by showing the deep connections between the Swift Boat Vets group and the Bush campaign:

“Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.”

Then they show how the leaders of the group have contradicted themselves over the years, some as recently as just a year ago:

“In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good man."

In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."

George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats."

"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

It sounds like the Kerry campaign could make a pretty good comercial of their own using these guys’ statements and the official record. Talk about flip-flopping!

The story goes on to relate how the Swift Boat group, with the backing of big Republican campaign donors, hired a private investigator to try and dig up dirt on Kerry’s war record. And he apparently accomplished this by misleading the people he interviewed and then misrepresenting what they said:

“Patrick Runyon, who served on a mission with Mr. Kerry, said he initially thought the caller was from a pro-Kerry group, and happily gave a statement about the night Mr. Kerry won his first Purple Heart. The investigator said he would send it to him by e-mail for his signature. Mr. Runyon said the edited version was stripped of all references to enemy combat, making it look like just another night in the Mekong Delta.

"It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he said. "He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest night of my life."

The story goes on to poke further holes in the Swift Boat Vet’s allegations and by the end it is clear that their real gripe with Kerry is that he chose to protest the war after leaving Vietnam.

It is unfortunate that the group didn’t stick with that criticism instead of resorting to making false and malicious smears against Kerry’s military service. By casting aspersions on Kerry, they are also calling into question the credibility of every member of the military who served in Vietnam and received commendations. If we supposedly cannot trust the documentation for Kerry’s wartime medals (or for Thurlow’s) then can we trust any of them? I believe that we can and I find the charges being leveled by the Swift Boat Vets group to be scurrilous and denigrating to all military veterans. A truly despicable enterprise and one that George W. Bush should have denounced long ago if he had a shred of decency.