Goodbye combustible engine?

[dd74]

While in LV last week, I met a guy who seemed to be in close contact with the petroleum industry. He told me that oil execs are scrambling right now to dig wells in the Stockton area of NorCal, hoping to get every last drop available. Well, I thought, that's nothing newsworthy... But this guy goes onto say the "digging" is being pursued with vigor because, as he puts it, the combustible engine as we know it, has approximately ten years to live. Hydrogen is fast on the horizon, and hybrids will take a much larger role in today's automobilia. I don't know about all that. I mean ten years?

I do hear, however, that there is a two-year waiting period for the Ford Escape hybrid.

Hmmm...could this be the future ten years early? You guys tell me...

[jyl]

Hybrids will be big, I definitely believe.

As for hydrogen, I think it depends a lot on government policies. Nationwide infrastructure for a new transportation method or energy source is awesomely expensive to build (think about how much it cost to build the freeway system, light rail systems, etc).

Not sure the likes of Chevron and General Motors will find it profitable to make the investment in the next decade - the oil companies will make more profit with the combination of ever-higher oil prices and national dependence on oil, and the US car companies are so far behind on alternative fuel technology that they may find it safer for the US to stick with gasoline.

If the government encourages the development of new transportation and energy sources, we might make the transition more smoothly and less painfully.

[red-beard]

Hydrogen is not so much a fuel, as an energy storage system. It does not occur naturally (as H2). You have to dissociate water to get it.

That said, some sort of energy must be used. That will have to be Nuclear. No real other choice.

Final problem: Hydrogen is extremely dangerous. The flamability limts range from 5% Hydrogen, 95% air to 95% hydrogen, 5 air. Hydrogen also is not a normal gas. It has a reverse Joule-Thomson effect when expanding: It heats instead cools. Under high enough pressure (and not that high), it is self igniting.

Fun stuff.

[project935]

10 years is incredibly optimistic. From what I've seen being played with here in the auto industry it's still very much in it's infancy. They have powertrains running well (maybe OK), but safe-storage and range are big time issues that need to be overcome.

Kinda give me the willys seeing test mule(s) running around with 3-6 4' long x 12" OD tanks packaged inside the car - only place they'll fit and be the "most" protected ... um, yeah ... right.

[928ram]

From what I understand of the future of fuel cells they will contain fairly small amounts of hydrogen as the will internally recycle at a reasonable low loss, but, there will be a loss and they will need to be recharged or swapped out at regular interval-no current infrastructure for any of this.
I like the nuclear idea; how about several dedicated reactors offshore in both oceans and the gulf.
I think the fuel cells is the eventual solution for much of our increasing energy needs, every new house could have one outside next the A/C unit to suppliment or even fully generate the house's need taking a tremendous burden off the grid.
As far as motor fuels, I see diesel engines and diesel/hybrids coming in great numbers soon.

[dd74]

Nuke-powered cars? Hmmm... I sort of like that, Red Beard.

There's already nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and submarines.

[turbo6bar]

Small diesel cars and hybrids look very, very good. Modern diesels are getting really good mileage (50+ mpg) and are much better in emissions initially and over time (less emissions equipment to wear out or fail). The hybrids are even better (predictions of 80+ mpg). Most commuters should be driving these vehicles.

I read an article a few weeks ago stating hybrids, particularly diesel hybrids, have far more promise in the next 6-10 yrs vs. fuel cell and battery powered vehicles. Of course, with artificial stimulus (tax credits, gov. funding) or abnormal market conditions ($8/gallon gasoline), who knows.

I don't see fuel cells replacing combustion engines in 10 yrs for the reasons jyl mentioned (infrastructure changes).

[island911]

Originally posted by red-beard
. . . Under high enough pressure (and not that high), it is self igniting.

Fun stuff.

Nice post. Though i'm thinking you want to clarify that last bit. (unless H₂ is running as a Dem -- then the scare-tactic is okay.)

W/o an oxidiser, H₂ wont be auto-igniting. So I'm guessing your talking about a punctured high-pressure tank . . where it hits the air . . with its reverse Joule-Thomson effect, and all. (?)

H₂ . . we may as well all have personal blimps if we're going to use that much of the stuff.

Actually, make mine a Zeplin . . I want speed.

Cover the top in solar-panels; wire to split your water. You would never have to fill up. -- wh-whooo

Well, unless of course you have a lead-foot, in your Zeplin . . . Anything Lead - Zeplin is bound to be short-lived.

[911pcars]

Already, US manufacturers are 2-3 years behind the imports in hybrid technology and off-the-shelf products. If they don't get off their duff soon, they'll be losing more market share to more forward thinking and prepared companies. It looks like gas prices are going upward rather than downward in the long run unless alternative energy sources are adopted. Let's hope something happens.

There are no alternative power sources for a flat six 911. In other words, "there is no substitute".

Sherwood

[red-beard]

Originally posted by 928ram
From what I understand of the future of fuel cells they will contain fairly small amounts of hydrogen as the will internally recycle at a reasonable low loss, but, there will be a loss and they will need to be recharged or swapped out at regular interval-no current infrastructure for any of this.

WTF?

http://www.fuelcells.org/basics/how.html

Hydrogen is consumed by the fuel cell. It is the fuel. The nice thing about hydrogen fuel cells is they require no reformer. But, you still have to make the hydrogen. That is where the Nuclear reactor comes in. Make lots of Electricity and use that to make hydrogen.

911...

[928ram]

Speaking of diesels, this just leaves me scratching my head.
I'm sure most of you have seen DaimlerChrysler's MB/Freightliner/Dodge "Sprinter" vans; they are the ones UPS and Fedex is converting to.
These MB deisel powered vans are said to give 25mpg in the full-length, high-top version *fully loaded* (maybe it was 1/2 load).
These things can't wiegh any less than a full size P/U or SUV even when empty so it stands to reason that even better mileage could be gotten with the Sprinter engine in the rarely loaded trucks and SUV that scoot around our road; why don't they offer this engine? And why don't the other MFG's do something similar?

[red-beard]

Originally posted by island911
W/o an oxidiser, H₂ wont be auto-igniting. So I'm guessing your talking about a punctured high-pressure tank . . where it hits the air . . with its reverse Joule-Thomson effect, and all. (?)

Exactly

Uh, Ford has a hydrid SUV out and plans to expand the models to include the Explorer. GM has a hydrogen fuel cell car on the dawing board. Except, that I still think Hydrogen is way too dangerous.

[turbo6bar]

Americans see HP and not economy and torque. Diesel engines are more expensive and last longer, which doesn't match the desire to buy new vehicles often and cheaply. Dodge offers a diesel engine in European Jeep models, but not here. There's no magical reason the VW TDIs have the best mileage in the business. It's a shame we don't have more options in the US. The only new cars with diesel engines are VW (reliability/build quality issues), and 2005 Mercedes models. One of the obstacles to high technology diesels is sulfur in fuels. European diesel fuels are refined more. As US diesel fuels are refined further, we will be able to import the high tech diesels with common rail injection. Coincidently, with better refining, diesel engines will burn even cleaner. Durable engines, great emissions, good power, amazing economy--I'm baffled, as well.

[dd74]

Originally posted by 911pcars
Already, US manufacturers are 2-3 years behind the imports in hybrid technology and off-the-shelf products. If they don't get off their duff soon, they'll be losing more market share to more forward thinking and prepared companies. It looks like gas prices are going upward rather than downward in the long run unless alternative energy sources are adopted. Let's hope something happens.

There are no alternative power sources for a flat six 911. In other words, "there is no substitute".

Sherwood

Sherwood, very nice indeed, and truthful. This was the crux of a story on NPR the other day - how USofA has dropped the big ball with hybrids and is scrambling. Hybrid/alt. energy market share is being lost as I write this to the Japanese manufacturers as well as some Europeans. I imagine the easiest way to go about this for Detroit is to simply buy the car companies doing the trailblazing.

Meanwhile, in the article, it was stated that Detroit is famous for pickups and SUVs, but that Toyota's new massive full-sized p-up will (it's forecast) take a nice-sized chunk of that market as well.

I don't know: Bill Clinton said on Letterman: "You want to make billions, get into alt. fuels." To be honest with you guys, I'm scraping together lose change...

Betcha' $3 bucks a gallon will be a huge psych barrier for a lot of people, BTW. It will happen...

[KNS]

I'd love to see more diesels in the US, I'm just not crazy about any of the current offerings. Currently there at least two or three aviation diesels coming on the market. These are air-cooled flat fours and sixes running on diesel or Jet A. These companies are targeting all the Lycoming powered aircraft out there as well as newer designs. I think in ten years or less these are going to be much more mainstream.

[lendaddy]

My Uncle is currently swapping on of those Sprinter diesels into a half-ton chevy truck. It's installed and fits great, but the brain is being less than cooperative. Should be pretty neat when done.

FWIW I have read from more than one scientist that the "hydrogen powered car" is a rather pointless exorcise. The process of "harvesting" the hydrogen will never be economical. "you cannot change the laws of physics" [groundskeeper willy]

[red-beard]

I don't think it will happen for a lot of reasons. And definitely, Hydrogen farming would be ineffcient.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by red-beard
And definitely, Hydrogen farming would be ineffcient.

Well, if you bale it just right........

[dd74]

Originally posted by lendaddy
the "hydrogen powered car" is a rather pointless exorcise...

LOL! Exorcise

[red-beard]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Well, if you bale it just right........

It's water...bail it...