Thinking of buying a Hybrid? Think again.

[96740]

This may just be news to me, but I guess back in January, California stopped giving out those stickers for the rear quarter panel/bumper area. The one that allows you to use the Carpool lane alone. They feel there are to many being used.

WASN'T THAT THE WHOLE POINT!

I'm curious to know if the salesmen are telling people this. I would go ballistic if I was not told.

[jyl]

The fact that the California sticker program is over is well known by people shopping for hybrids. So, this was news late last year and maybe in January, but not now.

The California sticker was hardly the "whole point" of getting a hybrid. Lots of hybrids are, and were, sold in states other than California.

And in California, only the Prius and maybe a couple other models were eligible for the stickers. Even pre- Jan, there were plenty of Priuses in the Bay Area (where I used to live) without the stickers; the owners didn't see the need to get the sticker.

[96740]

Well I sure as hell wouldn't be buying one for looks or to "Save the Planet"

There WERE two good reasons.

1. Save money on gas. (Money)
2. Able to drive in the Carpool alone. (Time)

# 1 was pushing it because of the higher cost of purchase/money saved on gas ratio was not that great. It takes years for the average driver to recoup the difference.

Now I'm just not interested.

[Hugh R]

I just ordered a Camry Hybrid, I'll take delivery in December or January. One of my brother in laws works for Toyota USA and is saving me about $5k over what dealers are asking. So I'm not paying the dealer markup for the car or the hybrid option. That will improve my ROI on the car over time. The 40 to 50 mpg is what interested me and it runs on regular. I think gas will always ratched up, maybe a few dips, but always up. I don't care about the carpool sticker. But I think that CA will change on the stickers cause someone will raise a challenge that under the equal protection clause of the state constitution, they will be denying me something that someone else is entitled to do. They already extended the availability once.

Another thing that was pointed out to me is that the gas motor only runs about 1/2 the time, therefore, in theory it should last about twice as long.

[Tobra]

They won't extend the availability again as it has been having an adverse effect on traffic flow in the HOV lanes. I would rather have an electric car, would work better for my purposes. Maybe I'll call Otto up in Oregon and get some info on doing a 914 electric.

[mikester]

Plus the program is only good until 2008 from what I understand - after that the stickers are no good. I believe there is talk of an extension to the program...

Originally I was totally against it and had I been given the opportunity to vote on it I would have voted no. Now I'm not sure how I would vote but I do think the Hybrids like the Prius and Civic which are pretty much the only eligible cars are very good cars. We have a Prius (2005) and it has been one of the best cars I've ever had.

Reliable, good on gas, comfortable and capable. The cargo capacity is nearly that of the Xterra we traded in. It is easy to fold down the rear seats to make room for more stuff and it fits 4 adults pretty darned well. We regularly get nearly 50mpg and we also do have the stickers which are very useful. They didn't really cause us to get the car nor would the lack of them stop us from keeping it.

It's just shy of a Camry in size but definitely bigger than a Corolla. We also did not pay any premium over the sticker price of the car when we bought it. There was no negotiation of course but there was no demand surcharge. We did have to get on a waiting list but we weren't in a hurry and waited half the time they told us we would (planned I'm sure).

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another and we've thought about it seriously.

[rob justice]

Forget the hybrids - small diesels rule the roost here just now.

65mpg is becoming the norm - with performance a hybrid could never think of.

I'm sure some have lower emissions than the hybrids also.

What's holding them back in the US?

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Get a motorcycle. All carpool lane, all the time.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

I just ordered a Camry Hybrid, I'll take delivery in December or January. One of my brother in laws works for Toyota USA and is saving me about $5k over what dealers are asking. So I'm not paying the dealer markup for the car or the hybrid option. That will improve my ROI on the car over time. The 40 to 50 mpg is what interested me and it runs on regular. I think gas will always ratched up, maybe a few dips, but always up. I don't care about the carpool sticker. But I think that CA will change on the stickers cause someone will raise a challenge that under the equal protection clause of the state constitution, they will be denying me something that someone else is entitled to do. They already extended the availability once.

Another thing that was pointed out to me is that the gas motor only runs about 1/2 the time, therefore, in theory it should last about twice as long.

Hugh,
My wife has been driving a Camry Hybrid for about 8 months and it seems to be reliable so far, but the best we've ever gotten is about 38-39 mpg on a long trip. The Prius should be closer to 50 mpg. The Camry is a nice and quiet cruiser, but at around 3800 lbs. and a CV slushbox, it has pretty tame driving manners.

Sherwood

[island911]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

...

Another thing that was pointed out to me is that the gas motor only runs about 1/2 the time, therefore, in theory it should last about twice as long.

That theory works only if the theory about 'start-up' being the primary cause of engine wear is wrong.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by island911

That theory works only if the theory about 'start-up' being the primary cause of engine wear is wrong.

Accelerated wear during engine startup refers mainly to cold starts. If an engine is already up to operating temperature, periodic shutdown and startup shouldn't be a problem. However, depending on the operating conditions, the gasoline engine in a hybrid may take longer to warm up. For this reason, start and stop driving in a hybrid isn't suggested.

Sherwood

[island911]

hmmm... oil pressure goes to zero. Higher thermal cycling...

Yeah, you make a good point about slower warm-up potential -- that can't be good for emissions (Cat Convrt) or the exhaust life (water condensation).

[911pcars]

Manufacturers have a pretty good handle on cold start emissions. They incorporate the cat as part of the exhaust manifold so it's just a few inches away from the very hot exhaust port - not 3 feet away as in older cat systems. Double wall exhaust manifolds also keep high exh. temperatures into the cat. Condensation is still an issue with cold starts, but corrosion is mitigated somewhat by using stainless steel exhaust components.

Sherwood

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Another thing that was pointed out to me is that the gas motor only runs about 1/2 the time, therefore, in theory it should last about twice as long.

Yeah, but what about the electric motor? And the sophistocated connections between the gas and electric systems? There are less mechanics familiar with that technology, and it will probably cost more to maintain in the long run to have a hybrid vehcile serviced than it's gas-only counterpart.

Oh, and if your goal is to buy a hybrid to save gas, keep in mind that it will take 10-15 YEARS to make up the difference, given that on average hybrid powered cars cost roughly $5000.00 more than a comprable gas powered vehicle. If you do the math, you'll see how the hybrid car won't save you much (if any) money in the long run.

As stated, the small diesel car rules the roost now. I suspect in the near future, the biodiesel will be the short term answer, and once they figure out how to efficiently make and bottle hydrogen, the hydrogen fuel cell powered car will be the answer.

My $0.42,
-Z-man.

[jyl]

The Prius has an excellent reliability record, with some having racked up >300K miles, so the Toyota engineers appear to have thought of the longevity issues you guys are discussing from your armchairs. Add the available 7-year warranties, and I am not worried about long-term cost of ownership. Well, if I were planning to keep my 2007 Prius for 20 years, maybe - but who is?

The current small diesels seem like a great idea, assuming emissions (particulates) can be reduced. I think the MPG figures on the small diesels that are being reported from Europe are a bit misleading, since those are truly "small" cars (e.g. a Peugeot 2-series is significantly smaller and less equipped than a Prius) and our UK friends are using Imperial gallons. But regardless, small diesels get great MPG.

They have gotten nowhere in the US because the European manufacturers who make small diesels either are not in the US or haven't bothered to import those models to the US. Also diesel fuel is not tax-advantaged in the US as it is in much of Europe (here, diesel is often more expensive than petrol) and is not widely available.

I'd like to see someone combine diesel with battery (diesel hybrid), and really market it in the US. For that matter, I'd like to see someone really market a diesel (non-hybrid) in the US. The more fuel-saving options that we have in the US, the better.

Hydrogen, fuel-cell, etc - all promising, AFAIK the biggest issue is distribution infrastructure. I won't buy a [insert technology here] car, as my primary vehicle, unless I know that I can get refueled in every tiny Podunk town in the USA.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by 96740

Well I sure as hell wouldn't be buying one for looks or to "Save the Planet"

There WERE two good reasons.

1. Save money on gas. (Money)
2. Able to drive in the Carpool alone. (Time)

# 1 was pushing it because of the higher cost of purchase/money saved on gas ratio was not that great. It takes years for the average driver to recoup the difference.

Now I'm just not interested.

I'm still mildly interested, but not bowled over by the Prius. Evidentially, they really don't pay for themselves until the 7th year of ownership with a lot of driving. This is also why the dealer doesn't push the Prius' lease program. In fact, the dealer flat out says the lease program is awful for the Prius.

[dd74]

In all actuality, I would like to hold off on anything like a Prius - and instead continue to drive my gas sucking (but paid off) SUVs, until the new crop of small turbo diesels come out in the next two years or so.

I hope CA. will get them. Though I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't as the prevailing ignorance here about diesels dates back to the 1970s and '80s Mercedes - many of which are still running, BTW.

[stevepaa]

Originally Posted by rob justice

Forget the hybrids - small diesels rule the roost here just now.

65mpg is becoming the norm - with performance a hybrid could never think of.

I'm sure some have lower emissions than the hybrids also.

What's holding them back in the US?

diesel emissions are bad for you.

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=36089

[Aerkuld]

Originally Posted by rob justice

Forget the hybrids - small diesels rule the roost here just now.

65mpg is becoming the norm - with performance a hybrid could never think of.

I'm sure some have lower emissions than the hybrids also.

What's holding them back in the US?

One word answer - Perception.

Like Steve said, the general consensus over here is that deisels are dirty, smelly and all that soot is bad for you. However, I suspect that this is based on observation of big trucks with their 16 liter diesel engines spewing out smoke when the truck driver sticks his foot down. I tend to think that passenger car diesels have moved on a very long way in the last ten or fifteen years. I may be wrong, but I think that the european diesel fuel and the super efficient turbo diesel engines actually run quite clean. Maybe the fuel is slightly different between Europe and the USA? But I don't think you tend to see horribly smokey diesels over there.
Anyone know for sure?

[livewirevoodoo]

I drive a 2007 Ford Escape hybrid as my work vehicle. Decent enough gas mileage, and a very smooth ride (can't even tell that the vehicle is on while idling). However, the fit & finish of the vehicle is HORRIBLE. Everything feels cheap and fragile in the vehicle, and more than one small trim pieces have fallen off. I'm certain not all manufacturers have this problem, and I'm sure its not limited to hybrids. But for a new vehcile to start exhibiting cosmetic flaws within a year of purchase would keep me away from purchasing or reccomending to anyone.