Flaps on Take-Off!!!!

[Sunroof]

Wow, I always knew that if your flying anything bigger then a Cessna 172 putting down the flaps for take-off is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED. I remember when a B-727 tried taking off from Detroit about 20 years go and the crew failed to lower flaps before take-off. Unfortunately everyone died as the plane barely got off the ground. Crew complacency was the fault.

Okay, so here I am at the Charlotte Airport in a small commuter jet last week and we back out of the ramp, hit the taxi-way and I am sitting in the window seat two rows behind the wing and in full view of the flaps. I am saying to myself as the co-pilot announces that they are number two for take-off that, why were the flaps not lowered yet? Too much drag going down the taxi-way? Maybe the check list fell between the seats? I am about to jump out of my seat and go screaming down the isle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!FLLAAAAPPSSS........

The plane turns onto the active runway and the flaps get lowered!!!! Whats wrong with this picture? Was this intended at the last moment? Do the modern jets have a built in recording that tells the pilot, "hey skipper, this plane ain't moving til the flaps are lowered"!?

All your commercial pilots please chime in.......am I nuts? got a bit too paranoid?
Or were we a throttle push from disaster?

Bob

[Porsche-O-Phile]

It's not absolutely required, although you're right - SOP typically calls for some degree of flap setting on most larger aircraft.

What kind of aircraft were you on? That would have a lot to do with the answer. TOW, density altitude, etc. all factor in on the recommended flap setting.

Also keep in mind that the power-to-weight ratios of modern CRJ-style jets are much higher than on old 727s. As such, they're probably a bit more forgiving of mistakes on flap settings, unless they're operating at a small-ish airport.

[450knotOffice]

I can't think of any Regional Jet or larger that would be approved for a zero flap takeoff.

Flaps are a checklist item, but normally they're lowered as part of a cockpit "flow" beforehand and then checked during the reading of the Checklist. They may have caught the flaps being out of position while performing the checklist.

Ultimately, however, the aircraft will issue a multi-tiered warning with a loud chime, flashing red lights, and a specific TO CONFIG message presented for the crew if they bring the thrust levers up to a high thrust (ie - takeoff) position if the flaps, trim, spoilers, brakes, etc. are not set properly for takeoff.

These warnings came about as a result of the accidents you mentioned.

[304065]

Bob, it wasn't a B727, it was a McDonnell Douglas MD-80, Northwest Flight 255. You are right about the 20 years ago, that's a day I will never forget because I stood on the hill holding a candle for about a decade as they read the names, sometimes nine in a row with the same last name.

I don't care what the NTSB said, not putting the flaps down is the same as not opening your fly. What NTSB/Douglas never told you is there were HUNDREDS of reports of unsolicited flap retractions, some one side, some both, that required the flap handle to be recycled to properly configure the aircraft for takeoff. But it's just easier to blame the dead guys like the NTSB always does. If I ever auger in I suppose they will blame me too.

Actually, there's nothing wrong with lowering the flaps prior to takeoff on the active. If the airplane is not correctly configured for takeoff there IS a system that's supposed to tell you that when you advance the throttles beyond a certain point-- and guess what, 255 had the same system, called CAWS or cockpit aural warning system, that was supposed to say "Flaps, Flaps" to warn the crew-- guess what it didn't work that night, but nobody went after Klixon, the manufacturer of the circuit breaker-- ask the commercial pilots here what they do when a circuit doesn't work-- you might get some good answers.

[Mr_Wizard]

Originally Posted by Sunroof

Wow, I always knew that if your flying anything bigger then a Cessna 172 putting down the flaps for take-off is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED. I remember when a B-727 tried taking off from Detroit about 20 years go and the crew failed to lower flaps before take-off. Unfortunately everyone died as the plane barely got off the ground. Crew complacency was the fault.

Okay, so here I am at the Charlotte Airport in a small commuter jet last week and we back out of the ramp, hit the taxi-way and I am sitting in the window seat two rows behind the wing and in full view of the flaps. I am saying to myself as the co-pilot announces that they are number two for take-off that, why were the flaps not lowered yet? Too much drag going down the taxi-way? Maybe the check list fell between the seats? I am about to jump out of my seat and go screaming down the isle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!FLLAAAAPPSSS........

The plane turns onto the active runway and the flaps get lowered!!!! Whats wrong with this picture? Was this intended at the last moment? Do the modern jets have a built in recording that tells the pilot, "hey skipper, this plane ain't moving til the flaps are lowered"!?

All your commercial pilots please chime in.......am I nuts? got a bit too paranoid?
Or were we a throttle push from disaster?

Bob

Bob,

I remember when this happened. I was 12 years old living in Romulus, Michigan about 5 miles away from the airport.

[Joeaksa]

There is a system called the "takeoff config" check. Checks several "killer" items like flaps, spoilers and so on.

If the pilot ran the throttles up then brought them back and THEN lowered the flaps then the config check system caught him and worked.

If the flaps were lowered before there was any increase in power then they just delayed doing the "takeoff items" until the last moment.

[dhoward]

Bloody mary hadn't kicked in yet...

[Zef]

Scott and Joe got it right on target...Just to make sure...is there a CB that can be pulled so the chime warning will not be annoying...?

[BlueSideUp]

On the aircraft I fly there is a way to disable the aural warnings and every airplane I've flown has some prescribed method to do so. However you'd have to have a serious case of rectal cranial inversion to take off or operate an aircraft with the system disabled unless the emergency procedures specifically told you to do so (like when you're in the air and getting incorrect warnings).

Our aircraft has two flap settings for takeoff, 8 and 20. Our SOP calls for a flaps 20 takeoff normally and a flaps 8 takeoff when required by the performance data. The flaps 8 setting can look pretty close to retracted since it's only an average of 8 degrees of extension across the wing. It's possible that the flaps were set at 8 and the crew realized that they should be set to 20 for your particular takeoff conditions. Other airlines operating the same aircraft use flaps 8 for all takeoffs except when 20 is required, the opposite of our airline. If you were riding on an ASA Delta Connection CRJ going back to Atlanta then that would be the case, they normally use a flaps 8 setting for takeoff.

Also at the top of one of the screens you will see a T/O CONFIG OK in green as long as all of the conditions are met for takeoff. Perhaps one of the crewmembers saw that the message was missing before entering the runway and lowered the flaps. While it isn't good to miss such a big item in the checklist it sounds like they caught it well before they would get all of the aural warnings.

Most airlines retract the flaps completely after exiting the runway and leave them up while in the ramp area to prevent damage. The CRJ had a requirement to inspect the flaps for twisting before every takeoff so many operators left them at the takeoff setting when on the ground. Most airlines have added a twist detection system so the flaps can be brought up all the way, some of the cheaper operators have decided to not install the system. Just a little TMI for you...

[stuartj]

You want flaps? I didnt thing these old girls had this in 'em

[speeder]

I'd love to know how they took that picture. Amazing.

[on-ramp]

Originally Posted by speeder

I'd love to know how they took that picture. Amazing.

that's not real. it's MS Flight Simlutor

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by on-ramp

that's not real. it's MS Flight Simlutor

I believe that pic is real (as much as one can believe any pic is real)- it came from a mate who is a 747 skipper.

[masraum]

It certainly could be real, but it's probably also (assuming real) an effect from camera angle and telephoto lens.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Zef

Scott and Joe got it right on target...Just to make sure...is there a CB that can be pulled so the chime warning will not be annoying...?

Yes but we are not going to talk about that here!

There are also "go fast" switches or CB's that can be pulled but that's really not going to be discussed!

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by speeder

I'd love to know how they took that picture. Amazing.

Ya really want to know? Its easy, like the one below.



Have done several photo flights like this. You get everyone in the traffic area settled down, then fly a long final down to the runway like you are going to land, but then fly over the runway at about 50 above the ground at 250 knots (the fastest that we are legally allowed to fly below 10,000) then at the end of the runway pull up hard and the guy orbiting above snaps the photo.

[rattlsnak]

On the other side, a CRJ is hardly a "small commuter jet".

Well,.... maybe to all the "cattle" in the back it is !!

besides, we prefer 'Barbie Jet'.

[Jeff Alton]

I have coordinated a few photo flights. (From ATC) These were for A340, A330 and the B777. We will clear lots of room for the photo object and its' chase plane to conduct something similar to what you see with that B747.

Joe, if you come up here, ummm we may turn the other way if you want to go more than 250kts below 10,000, but only because it is you.....

I have a letter on my file from a few years back, something about coordinating an F18 low pass with a full afterburn climb to FL350 over the airport. It was a Canadian Forces aircraft, we told him the US Navy was by the week before and "held the record". He did not need much coaxing..........I thought it was a good idea at the time..... Too bad for me and my co-workers there was a well known reporter spilling his soup at a restaurant on a 2 mile final when the F18 went by at 400kts and accelerating............ OOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSS.

Cheers

[BlueSideUp]

rattlsnak- Yeah it doesn't matter if it's the 200 or a 700, people still think it's small. It's funny that people think the E-170 is a "real" airplane. I haven't flown the 900 but I assume people also think that's a "small" plane.

Jeff that must have been impressive to see. I think someone at my company would get their panties in a wad over a high speed pass. I have done a low speed pass to check a nose gear once, I didn't even end up on the news or anything.

[beepbeep]

Did Concorde had flaps?