Grrrr: Plumber deceptive billing practice

[WI wide body]

My favorite plumbing story is the one about the doctor who called a plumber at 10 pm about a toilet. The plumber told the doc he would be out in the morning. The doc gets all huffy and says that's a crummy way to do business and how would you like it if I acted like that?

Plumber says...you know what doc you're right...I should act like you. So toss two aspirins in it and stop in my office tomorrow if it's not better!

[ChrisBennet]

Originally Posted by 911Rob

Plumbers always say, "***** runs downhill"

It's a crappy job.

$200 to get plumbing repaired on a Sat? OMG!
You should discuss the bill with them, see how they react?

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic but if you are, imagine two scenarios:
(A) I told you I'd charge $35 to come look at your 911 motor. When I got there I charged you $195 for a fan belt.

(B) Now imagine that I said I'd charge $210 to come an look at your motor and then I charged you $20 for the fan belt.

A & B both come to the same total ($230) but wouldn't scenario "A" piss you off?

I don't have a problem paying someone $200 to come out on a Saturday with a fully equiped truck for 15 minutes work.

I do have a problem with someone charging me $195 for an $11 thermocouple....

Sorry if I'm a bit touchy about it still...

-Chris

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by ChrisBennet

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic but if you are, imagine two scenarios:
(A) I told you I'd charge $35 to come look at your 911 motor. When I got there I charged you $195 for a fan belt.

(B) Now imagine that I said I'd charge $210 to come an look at your motor and then I charged you $20 for the fan belt.

A & B both come to the same total ($230) but wouldn't scenario "A" piss you off?

I don't have a problem paying someone $200 to come out on a Saturday with a fully equiped truck for 15 minutes work.

I do have a problem with someone charging me $195 for an $11 thermocouple....

Sorry if I'm a bit touchy about it still...

-Chris

Not sure if he was being "sarcastic" but let me be realistic. Not sure what you do for a living but I assume it's out in the real world. One would have to be incredibly naive (or something else to be unspoken here) to think that any business could send out a semi-professional repairman to your home for $35 bucks. So here are two thoughts:

First, surely you might expect that a number that low would have to be made up somewhere else in their business plan.

Second, before authorizing the work why did not "sweetie" or you get an estimate? That usually works really well when contracting out work.

[ChrisBennet]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

Not sure if he was being "sarcastic" but let me be realistic. Not sure what you do for a living but I assume it's out in the real world. One would have to be incredibly naive (or something else to be unspoken here) to think that any business could send out a semi-professional repairman to your home for $35 bucks. So here are two thoughts:

First, surely you might expect that a number that low would have to be made up somewhere else in their business plan.

Second, before authorizing the work why did not "sweetie" or you get an estimate? That usually works really well when contracting out work.

I didn't make the call to the plumber and I'm not sure how one gets an estimate on "My gas hot water heater isn't working, how much is that to fix? Oh and BTW, how much do you charge for every part you might change in order to fix it?"

Afterwards she called another plumbing company to get a price for comparison purposes only to be told, "We don't quote prices over the phone."

Judging from other people's posts on this thread, apparently the plumbing profession has it's share of "Motor Meisters".

I've rebuilt my share of 911 motors and transmissions, fixed washing machines, roofed houses, rekeyed locks, etc. but excuse me if I don't know how to diagnose and fix a gas water heater and I don't know how much a thermocouple costs (until I looked it up on the internet).

-Chris

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by ChrisBennet

I didn't make the call to the plumber and I'm not sure how one gets an estimate on "My gas hot water heater isn't working, how much is that to fix? Oh and BTW, how much do you charge for every part you might change in order to fix it?"

Afterwards she called another plumbing company to get a price for comparison purposes only to be told, "We don't quote prices over the phone."

Judging from other people's posts on this thread, apparently the plumbing profession has it's share of "Motor Meisters".

I've rebuilt my share of 911 motors and transmissions, fixed washing machines, roofed houses, rekeyed locks, etc. but excuse me if I don't know how to diagnose and fix a gas water heater and I don't know how much a thermocouple costs (until I looked it up on the internet).

-Chris

If you have "rebuilt...911 motors and transmissions" then a water heater is just about the most simple unit/appliance in your home next to your toaster!

Here is how you get an estimate: "Mr. Repairman, please do not do any major work until you give me the cost." It works nearly every time.

BTW, I've installed water heaters on my lunch break but it took me half a day to replace the damn Head Temperature Sensor on my 911!

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

...

Heck, I would always do that when some jerk-off big wheel at a plant who didn't know ***** would insist that I give him a time/cost figure on a repair that my guys were going to do. I would triple everything. (it's called wiggle room) Make everything sound like it took a combination of genius and mechanical wizardary to get it done and then the bozo was happy as hell when it only took 1/2 as long at 1/2 the cost!

So it is ok to lie to customers and provide false estimates? Sounds like a malfunctioning moral compass.

[ChrisBennet]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

If you have "rebuilt...911 motors and transmissions" then a water heater is just about the most simple unit/appliance in your home next to your toaster!

Here is how you get an estimate: "Mr. Repairman, please do not do any major work until you give me the cost." It works nearly every time.

"OK Mr Plumber, just cool your heels while I go research on the internet for what a thermostat should cost. Only be a minute..."

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

PEX tubing and pushlock connections are going to kill the plumbing industry. I did a new shower and a water softener no problemo.

There really is no need to sweat anything anymore.

I'm retro'ing a 3 unit apartment building in PEX. 1/3 the cost of copper and 2/3 the labor. The only problem was finding a supplier who would sell outside the "trade".

[9dreizig]

Originally Posted by craigster59

I'm retro'ing a 3 unit apartment building in PEX. 1/3 the cost of copper and 2/3 the labor. The only problem was finding a supplier who would sell outside the "trade".

Home Depot or Lowes doesn't sell it ??

[lendaddy]

Yep, Home Depot and Lowes sell it. It really is awesome stuff and very easy to work with.

[911Rob]

Originally Posted by ChrisBennet

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic but if you are, imagine two scenarios:
(A) I told you I'd charge $35 to come look at your 911 motor. When I got there I charged you $195 for a fan belt.
(B) Now imagine that I said I'd charge $210 to come an look at your motor and then I charged you $20 for the fan belt.
A & B both come to the same total ($230) but wouldn't scenario "A" piss you off?
I don't have a problem paying someone $200 to come out on a Saturday with a fully equiped truck for 15 minutes work.
I do have a problem with someone charging me $195 for an $11 thermocouple....
Sorry if I'm a bit touchy about it still...
-Chris

Hey Chris,
No I wasn't trying to be sarcastic; sorry; just a tongue in cheek expression that plumbers always use. I work with contractors everyday, you don't have to spell it out for me.
I agree with your point; the bill was probably correct for the work done, but the breakdown was fubar.

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by fintstone

So it is ok to lie to customers and provide false estimates? Sounds like a malfunctioning moral compass.

You continue to appear to be unable to process information and facts correctly. I'm going to try to locate the proper book that might heal your affliction...or would that actually be an "affection" for you?

What I was speaking of was at the "plant" where I might be assigned at that particular time. The "big wheel jerk-off" that I mentioned was a fellow member of the supervisory group and we were on the same team...and he was not a "customer." Go slow and it will come to you.

The only "malfunctioning...compass" is that one located between your ears.

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by ChrisBennet

"OK Mr Plumber, just cool your heels while I go research on the internet for what a thermostat should cost. Only be a minute..."

No need to "research" anything. Just ask for an estimate on the total cost. You are making this waaaaaaaaaaaaay more complicated than it really needs to be.

[sammyg2]

Many years ago my AC failed on one of the hottest days of the year.

I called around and found an AC guy who was willing to come look at it that day, but he said a minimum of $60 just to show up. I said fine with me.

he checked it out and in 5 minutes said it was my main power relay. BTW I'm no electrician but I pretty much knew what that was after he told me.
he said he'd replace it for something like $250. I said no thanks, I'll give you the $60 for your time and you can go. I'll replace it myself. I figured it might only needed to have the contacts cleaned anyway after looking at it.

he said he's got one on his truck, he'll install it for $150. I said no thank you, I can probably buy one for less than $25. I'd bet he pays way less than that for one. prolly closer to $5 or $10.

he said he's do it for $100, I asked if that included the $60 show up charge. That ticked him off but he agreed. It took him 5 minutes to replace it but he still looked a bit angry which surprised me, seemed like we came to consensus plus he made closer to $90 instead of the $60 he was going to get.

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by craigster59

I'm retro'ing a 3 unit apartment building in PEX. 1/3 the cost of copper and 2/3 the labor. The only problem was finding a supplier who would sell outside the "trade".

Do the specs require copper and if no why are you using it?

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Many years ago my AC failed on one of the hottest days of the year.

I called around and found an AC guy who was willing to come look at it that day, but he said a minimum of $60 just to show up. I said fine with me.

he checked it out and in 5 minutes said it was my main power relay. BTW I'm no electrician but I pretty much knew what that was after he told me.
he said he'd replace it for something like $250. I said no thanks, I'll give you the $60 for your time and you can go. I'll replace it myself. I figured it might only needed to have the contacts cleaned anyway after looking at it.

he said he's got one on his truck, he'll install it for $150. I said no thank you, I can probably buy one for less than $25. I'd bet he pays way less than that for one. prolly closer to $5 or $10.

he said he's do it for $100, I asked if that included the $60 show up charge. That ticked him off but he agreed. It took him 5 minutes to replace it but he still looked a bit angry which surprised me, seemed like we came to consensus plus he made closer to $90 instead of the $60 he was going to get.

Again, this is exactly what I was trying to get across to Chris. Get an estimate and go from there. If you think it's too high, either do what you did or tell the guy thanks but no thanks.

It's too late when someone doesn't ask the right questions and then complains after the fact about the cost. If you had told him okay right after he first tossed you that $250 figure your final cost most likely would have been closer to $300. Unfortunately, that's the way it often works out.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

Do the specs require copper and if no why are you using it?

The specs don't require copper, I'm replacing schedule M that was used (instead of K) when the place was built in the early 60's. Pinhole leaks were developing in one of the units and it's only a matter of time before they pop up elsewhere.

I'm using Pex for a few reasons. #1. $$$$ #2. Minimal disruption to the tenants and walls.

More info here, but you need to sign up to read the article (worth signing up. Great resource and magazine).
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/pex-pipe-is-copper-on-the-way-out.aspx?ac=ts&ra=fp

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by craigster59

The specs don't require copper, I'm replacing schedule M that was used (instead of K) when the place was built in the early 60's. Pinhole leaks were developing in one of the units and it's only a matter of time before they pop up elsewhere.

I'm using Pex for a few reasons. #1. $$$$ #2. Minimal disruption to the tenants and walls.

More info here, but you need to sign up to read the article (worth signing up. Great resource and magazine).
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/pex-pipe-is-copper-on-the-way-out.aspx?ac=ts&ra=fp

If I recall correctly the K is green stripe and M is red stripe and the K is a little thicker wall diameter. But both are basically drawn, hard tempered copper. I would sure use plastic if at all possible...less costly, easier to install, easier to repair...no brainer for me.

[911Rob]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Many years ago my AC failed on one of the hottest days of the year. ...snip... seemed like we came to consensus plus he made closer to $90 instead of the $60 he was going to get.

Good one Sammy!!!

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

If I recall correctly the K is green stripe and M is red stripe and the K is a little thicker wall diameter. I would sure use plastic if at all possible...less costly, easier to install, easier to repair...no brainer for me.

You are correct, K is almost double the wall thickness and should have been used. The temps in the area get below freezing and the M started to fail. PEX has 10x the expansion of copper (great for cold areas) and has a burst failure on the tubing, not at the fitting, of 1000 psi. Normal house water pressure is 50-65 psi.