No good deed goes unpunished

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by nostatic

I've been wanting to post a rant about people at my local Peets. There have been a number of people who are just totally inconsiderate, rude slobs. They make a total mess, let their kids run around uncontrolled, then drive off. In their Mercedes SUV. I won't mention ethnicity because frankly it seems to cross borders but I will say that there do seem to be some tendencies in attitudes that are culturally based.

No, I don't think that lower socioeconomic are more prone to assh*le behavior. In fact, I think that well-off are more likely to have the sense of entitlement and assume that some lackey will come clean their crap up.

+1 Todd... Furthermore, I think I would add that it also seems to be geographically based. There are more pendejos per capita in the SoCal region then anywhere else in the nation... Just plain rude people, wouldn't you agree? I base this on my extensive travel around the US in the last 10 years. There seems to be an overwhelming sense of entitlement in SoCal that I've never seen anywhere else!

[Dan in Pasadena]

Sammy, We're cool. Honestly, I WAS trying to be cool in my original response. Obviously, it did not sound that way to you but that is why I said a couple of things that I THOUGHT demonstrated that. I wrote:

"I have absolutely NO DISAGREEMENT that your proprty was damaged and that would p!ss me off...

"It seems as though you are saying they damaged it BECAUSE they are hispanic? I kinda doubt you meant that,..."

"My point is I suspect you are not biggoted but..."

Sammy, If I really thought you were a bigot I wouldn't even talk to you. You were p!ssed and wrote something. I reacted (okay, yea, p!ssed off some too) and I wrote something.

I apologize to you but especially to the guys here if they thought I was trying to portray Sammy as a bigot or a racist, I believe he is not. I hope none of us on PPOT has THAT terminal disease! I think in his justified anger and upset he posted something I thought was off the mark and I said so...and when he responded angry and dismissive at my initial response, well...I rachetted it up a notch too. I could have been less judgemental and accusational sounding. We're cool Sammy.

By the way, separate post, my own little 25% hispanic grandson was born yesteday. I very much doubt we have the slightest difference in what we wish for our respective families. Perhaps we just differ in our ideas on how to achieve what they need/experience in their lives.

[nostatic]

please don't mention Peets and the S-word in the same sentence.

Yeah, SoCal has gotten pretty rude, ESPECIALLY the westside. I would move in a heartbeat if I didn't have familial obligations here. Pasadena was much better in that regard. And when I was up in Pismo Beach, I was astonished at how nice everyone was.

Sam, the difference between your original post and my post is that you made assumptions about people based on their appearance. I instead criticized the actions and noted that certain cultures seemed to accept those actions. And I didn't assume their legal status. They certainly are immigrants (based on the accents/languages) but I don't default to legal or illegal - they're just rude slobs.

[sammyg2]

OK Dan, we're cool. But Todd And I have some work to do

Peets startbucks peets startbucks peets starbucks

[gassy]

Group hug anyone?

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by gassy

Group hug anyone?

Only if everyone can verify a shower with-in the past 2 hours.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

On the one hand I tend to see a lot of truth in the statement that those who are from poorer backgrounds probably tend to be a bit more respectful of property (because they understand the value of it) more so than those those who perhaps are from a bit more privileged background, which might tend to give rise to "entitlement complexes". I can certainly see how the latter group might not understand the value of things and would tend to display this in their inconsiderate attitudes (flinging car doors open into the people next to them, not putting shopping carts back in the corrals when done using them at the mall, etc.) I'm sure there are exceptions but it would certainly make an interesting sociological experiment to test this somehow.

OTOH (and at risk of generalization here), it's certainly true that "poor" neighborhoods (ethnic or otherwise) tend to not be kept to the same standard as more affluent ones. We've all driven through a particular neighborhood at one point and gone "holy cow, this place is a dump/ghetto/slum/whatever". . . Certainly some of this is inherent (due to lack of money) - homes go unpainted for longer, stuff is in a bit more disrepair because people don't have the money to fix it, the cars tend to have mismatched wheels and body panels, etc. From the standard of "white, clean and neat" equating to wealth and affluence, this automatically means "poor neighborhood". Those things alone are't bad necessarily, but what I'm curious about is whether or not people in those neighborhoods are more likely to TRASH it and inherently care less about their surroundings, since there is a perception built in that they're "trashy" anyway. Do "poor" people tend to toss their kids' dirty diapers wherever, litter, flick cigarette butts into peoples' yards, chuck beer cans into the gutters, stuff like that? My own personal observations indicate "yes", much as I hate to admit it. I'm sure we've all driven through a "poor" neighborhood of this type (again, ethnic or otherwise) and wondered "what the hell is wrong with these people? Don't they care about where they live?" By contrast, in a "nice" neighborhood, people are likely to raise a stink with the neighbors if the lawn isn't mowed, there are broken down cars parked in someone's driveway, etc. And perhaps an expectation of more considerate behavior.

So there's an odd parody at work here. On one hand, I suppose it's true that poorer individuals (some of them) might tend to respect their surroundings and others' property more than their snobby rich counterparts, but OTOH, there is another group of the same socioeconomic strata that seems to "not shive a git" about their surroundings, including others' property. . .

I'm not sure which viewpoint or attitude is the prevalent one, or even if it differs from the "affluent" ones.

Speaking for myself, we never had nice things as kids and were certainly not "affluent". We weren't dirt poor either, but there were periods of time when dad was walking to work and I was walking to school because we couldn't afford a car and when we were "this close" to getting foreclosed on. I might have been a young kid, but I wasn't stupid and still had an idea of what was going on, despite mom & dad's attempts to whisper their fears and arguments to one another behind closed doors or when they thought I was asleep or unaware.

To this day, I think I take VERY good care of my stuff. I'm somewhat obsessive about keeping things in good working order and trying to fix things before chucking them, running out and buying a replacement. I tend to believe in the "buy it once, buy the best" philosophy rather than buying something cheaper that will last for 1/4 of the time, only to replace it later on. I'm not sure how much of this comes from growing up without the benefit of nice stuff all the time, but I'm sure it's partly attributable.

This clashes quite a bit with today's "throwaway" culture, particularly when coupled with the rampant materialism of southern California in general. I think I've learned to compromise and see a sort of "middle ground" as acceptable. . .

[Mule]

Originally Posted by Dan in Pasadena

Sammy,
I have absolutely NO DISAGREEMENT that your proprty was damamged and that would p!ss me off, no question. What I also get from your post is: It seems as though you are saying they damaged it BECAUSE they are hispanic? I kinda doubt you meant that, but that IS how it comes off sounding...at least to me. Not a question in the world they were thoughtless to have broken your plants, etc. but rudeness is a human trait, not a hispanic trait.

Where did he say that Dan? My guess would be that they damaged it because they are dirtbags with no regard for the property of others, even when those others are helping them. I would add that because of the fact that they are from a nasty ass, backwards, third world culture, the chances of them acting this way are heightened. Hispanic only comes into play by virtue of the fact that most folks we encounter from nasty ass, backwards, third world cultures, happen to be hispanic. I hope this helps.

Also, you don't their immigration status. Yes, I'll agree with you that because they don't speak English, or speak it well it leads you to believe they are recent immigrants.

Yeah! They may be 4 of the 11 legal Mexicans in CA. What a leap that was!

They may well be; but they might be legal. A stretch? Yeah, probably but hell, my girlfriend's mother is 86 years old, has been a citizen for 50 years and STILL doesn't speak English. She understands it but is very uncomfortable and won't really try.

My point is I suspect you are not biggoted but your post comes off sounding that way...at least to a hispanic person. Why did it have to be about their ethnicity and not just a beef about rude people taking for granted your assistance and generosity. Karma man, they'll get theirs.

Do you carry your "white guilt" around in a knapsack or is all the room in the knapsack taken up by political correctness?

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by Mule

Do you carry your "white guilt" around in a knapsack or is all the room in the knapsack taken up by political correctness?

[Dan in Pasadena]

Oh man Mule, you just want to keep on stirring it up and stirring it up, huh? Okay, to everyone else that thought we were over this particular disagreement I will try to now address Mule's questions/comments. "Where did he say that? Dan's reponse - Where did he say what? You addressed five lines of text there. I assume where I asked if he meant they damaged his property BECAUSE they were hispanic. Is that what you're referring to? Did you not happen to notice that the VERY NEXT SENTENCE says, "I kinda doubt you meant that, but that IS how it comes off sounding...at least to me." Those were my personal feelings on reading his whole post. Sammy has clearly said that is NOT how he meant to be taken and I have said perhaps I was overly sensitive to it. What do you need Mule to feel "all better" about this exchange?

You also seem to have missed that I have said at least a few times in these exchanges that these people probably ARE illegal. That wasn't my point. My point was that he seemed to ASSUME they were illegal by virtue of what? I happen to disagree with his assumption, but I do understand how he reached it. My real issue is/was that their ethnicity and immigration status is irrelevant to the issue...they're insensitive jackasses for abusing his generosity. Which I ALSO said a couple of times. Where's the political correctness in that?

Your comment - "Do you carry your "white guilt" around in a knapsack or is all the room in the knapsack taken up by political correctness?" Frankly, I don't know what the hell you're referring to here? You used a smiley face so you're joking about something? I'm not "white" at least not like you may be, so I don't know where the guilt comes in? But for the record, I have no guilt over...well, anything I can think of.

These people were rude, and took advantage of Sam's generosity....I just happen to think there ethnicity and immigration status have nothing to do with their character flaws. Others have chimed in that they agree with that opinion. Maybe you think it is ok (?) to make assumptions about people based on their color, immigration status, their being right or left handed, etc? I don't, but if that's your thing. "No one's going to tell me I can't call a spade a spade" ...well have at it. Karma dude, karma.

[livi]

SAMMY

DAN


You are both among the best guys I ever got to know long distance - but you begin to sound like two lovers arguing over choice of curtin color!

[nostatic]

not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Dan in Pasadena]

Markus,
Maybe I am all wrong. Maybe I shouldn't "shive a git" (I like Jeff's expression) what guys I "know" via the internet think of me or my opinions; but I kinda do. I don't go to other websites and post (well, virtually never) so you guys get whatever I have to say on whatever topic I respond to (sorry guys). If you write something I want to comment on, I comment. Usually "in kind" to the tone the poster used but I TRY to avoid the name calling, the label applying, the categorical thinking, i.e. stereotyping...as much as I am capable of.

Plus, Sammy's a local. I've never met him and I may never but I have no interest in ticking people off intentionally. Hell, I do it enough unintentionally! Anyone who sends/receives email knows that sometimes you come off sounding very differently than you intended. I'm sure it applies to things I write which is why I responded to Sammy's request that I reconsider what I wrote. I hope he knows I did that. I like talking with MOST of you guys. And I especially like talking to some of the guys I disagree with. Rammstein, sometimes Legion and P-O-P (Jeff) and I have very dissimilar (sp?) political points of view. I happen to think (perhaps wrongly) that most of us want the same things for ourselves, our children, our country and the world overall. We just have a different point of view on how to accomplish these things.

EDIT: Oh man, I just re-read that... I need to sack the hell up! I almost felt a tear welling up! How 'bout dem Bears, boys?!

[livi]

You know what, Dan. You are a good man. Every singly post on OT by you shows you are a sinsere, honest and warm hearted guy. Period.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Wuss.

Great post, BTW.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by livi

You know what, Dan. You are a good man. Every singly post on OT by you shows you are a sinsere, honest and warm hearted guy. Period.

Hey, hey! What are you calling me? A "sensitive" guy?

Actually thank you, but the expression, "I'm not a doctor, I just play one on TV" applies. I do as well as I can but I am not as "sincere, honest, warm hearted" as I MAY sound to you (Sammy, resist your urge to call me what you are thinking). Let's just say I am well intended...mostly.

Truthfully?, I am a bit of a mess. I am an impatient man....except with my kids and I can be moody. I think about things too much and I lack spontaneity because of it...but at least I know it now. I have been known to talk AT things that p!ss me off or force things and if I get it to "go" I say, "I win you F'ing S.O.B." People at a fast food drive-thru generally (Mule, politically incorrect comment coming!) deserve to be working there. They NEVER EVER get my order right. I am a picky eater, another way of admitting I largely eat like a child Sad but true.

Markus, if I ever make it to Europe again (I want to do Spain in '09 or '10) I want to look you up Doc and buy you a dinner. I actually LOVE the "foreigner" input you give us sometimes arrogant, ugly Americans. Take care, Dan

[sammyg2]

*****.
Dan and I have more in common than not, we got pissy and got over it. Big deal, move on.
We both live in the same area, we will prolly meet one of these days at a Porsche event and chances are we'll get along just fine, as long as we don't let some internet chest pounding ruin it. I'm sure we'll disagree again, I'm sure we'll piss each other off again, but we'll handle it like men and not little kids. He took the high road here, he deserves some respect for that.

We can either stay pissed and hold a grudge like little kids or work it out and move on.
Our viewpoints differed but mostly due to interpretation. People come off differently on a computer screen than in person.

But, if I know anything I know I'm wrong when mule takes my side

inside joke, mule and I butt heads constantly.