Illegal aliens and feeding at the public trough...I'm not in Kalifornia, but....

Dueller · 02-16-2008, 03:13 PM

...do live in an agrarian state where there are significant numbers of migrant Hispanic workers, most of whom are likely undocumented (how's that for PC?). And in my work I come across a number of them. But for the life of me, I don't see them as availing themselves of social services. Despite what the politicians and pundits claim, my experience has been that they prefer to fly under the radar and avoid "Los Federales" at all costs.

And while standing in line at the grocery store I've never seen anyone of hispanic descent using food stamps. I don't see them in emergency rooms. And I don't see them panhandling on street corners. They quietly go about their busines and seem to be a hardworking lot.

I'm not condoning their illegal status, but those I've seen don't appear to be on the dole.

Hugh R · 02-16-2008, 03:19 PM

They cost Los Angeles County about 20% of their health care budget. With the other 80% going to others without health care insurance. When they have kids, what about education of them? How about ob/gyn costs when they deliver their anchor babies?

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

There's a lot of propaganda out there. 12 million illegals is the latest, largest estimate, or 4% of the population. About half the illegals are from Mexico. So that's around 2% of the population. There are areas of concentration, of course, but a survey in Los Angeles said illegals are far less likely to use public health services like emergency rooms -- than 'legals' at the same end of the income scale.

Still, there's a big propaganda machine out there cranking out bogus statistics to get the population all stirred up. Bottom line is that the economy needs people to do the 'scut work' and Mexicans/hispanics are the folks you can count on to show up, do the work and not bring drama.

Should Reagan have granted amnesty in '86? Maybe not, but he did it because businesses needed to keep their lower-echelon workers. Corporations are still dependent on them as are many small/medium sized businesses. So, what to do? As long as the need is here, the workers will show up. Claims of negative economic impact may or may not be real. Truly unbiased sources are difficult to find.

KaptKaos · 02-16-2008, 04:04 PM

Dueller - just because you haven't seen that happening doesn't mean its not.

Techweenie - "Lies, damn lies and statistics." Both sides of the debate use them and make them up as they go along.

Bottom line, it's against federal law to be in this country illegally. I know that if I was breaking federal law on a daily basis, they would come after me. You want to change the laws, then petition congress to change them. Until then, enforce the laws.

artplumber · 02-16-2008, 04:17 PM

Maybe you're looking in the wrong ER's?

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

Joe, you may wish it otherwise, but being here without documentation is a crime lower than a misdemeanor. It's an administrative violation -- something on the order of a speeding ticket.

Dueller · 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaptKaos

Dueller - just because you haven't seen that happening doesn't mean its not.

Techweenie - "Lies, damn lies and statistics." Both sides of the debate use them and make them up as they go along.

Bottom line, it's against federal law to be in this country illegally. I know that if I was breaking federal law on a daily basis, they would come after me. You want to change the laws, then petition congress to change them. Until then, enforce the laws.

Granted, perhaps I see something different....perhaps only anecdotal. And I certainly don't endorse breaking the law. I hear of the criminal element within the community....however, I see very little evidence of it and when they are arrested they want to pay their fine and never want to challenge anything. But there's a reason Bush (i.e.;big business) wanted to let them stay here and it ain't because of the quote on the Statue of Liberty. Let's face it...corporate agriculture needs them.

I'm only sharing my personal observations...many hispanics want to be here for the work and avoid any involvement with the State.

Dueller · 02-16-2008, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Many illegals use the school systems here as "day-care" for their kids. My wife used to work in the inner city schools, and her class was 100% hispanic, and estimated that almost all had parents that were illegal. The children were US citizens of course, but the parents weren't involved in their schoolwork, and didn't really care about their progress (for the most part), so it was very frustrating for her.

Techweenie is right - the reason why these immigrants are here is because there are companies willing to employ them and there are jobs available. Our current policy is rife with hypocracy - we need to either kick them all out, or let them stay, but this middle ground of "don't ask, don't tell" is going to continue to divide the country. Frankly, from a practical standpoint, US unemployment is (has been) generally low, so there seems to be some type of demand for the workers. However, as we enter a period of economic slowdown, I anticipate an increase in backlash against the illegal workers here as US citizens have a harder time finding jobs. Such a problem happened in the 1930s, when the US basically rounded up all of the illegal workers and deported them because they were taking valuable jobs away from US citizens.

-Wayne

That's quite a leap of logic there Wayne: Hispanic=illegal=not involved=don't care.

Do you really think the jobs most illegals undertake are so "valuable" that unemployed citizens will be clamoring for them as the economy slows?

WI wide body · 02-16-2008, 04:59 PM

I do not understand the "USA business needs them" argument for undocumented workers. Should it really be a function of our government to provide low cost workers for ANY industry?

Seems to me that is contrary to almost everything that we often hear from those who preach the mantra of a "free market" economy.

biosurfer1 · 02-16-2008, 05:08 PM

I guess it depends on what your defination of "valuable" is.

To me, it means a job that puts food on the table when the alternative is to go without...and in that case, yes, I do believe unemployed citizen's will happily take them once they get over the pride issue and have to deal with the survival issue. PC or not, I believe citizens should get those jobs first if they need them. Ya it may be a ****ty position, but thats the price you pay to if you are choose to be an illegal, you get the crappy jobs if citizens dont need them.

If they have a problem with it, there is a defined process to become a citizen and all the benefits that come with it.

If they still have a problem with it, go home.

look 171 · 02-16-2008, 05:12 PM

Here's one for you. When I was a kid, high school, I almost always found a summer job washing cars or what not. Now, all those jobs are filled with adults (latin backround if you would). I teach wood shop 3 hours a day at a high school in LA. Many of the students would love to work those jobs in the summer but can't find anything like that. So many have been here almost all their lives. They came over with their parents when little, still, without papers. Now junior colleges and the Cal State colleges (I got that from someone a while ago, about the state colleges, in my school and not sure if its really true) are taking them as students. We give them free meals and education. that's a lot of money. What are these kids going to do after high school? Work at pelican parts, maybe (the legal ones of course)? That's a lots of people.

Dueller · 02-16-2008, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by look 171

Here's one for you. When I was a kid, high school, I almost always found a summer job washing cars or what not. Now, all those jobs are filled with adults (latin backround if you would). I teach wood shop 3 hours a day at a high school in LA. Many of the students would love to work those jobs in the summer but can't find anything like that. So many have been here almost all their lives. They came over with their parents when little, still, without papers. Now junior colleges and the Cal State colleges (I got that from someone a while ago, about the state colleges, in my school and not sure if its really true) are taking them as students. We give them free meals and education. that's a lot of money. What are these kids going to do after high school? Work at pelican parts, maybe (the legal ones of course)? That's a lots of people.

Well my stepson started his own lawn care business last summer in what I would dare say is loaded with Hispanic workers even here. He made a small fortune (averaged about $700/weekend working only Sat/Sun since he was a lifeguard during the week and picking up a class at the juco).

And speaking of college...we went thru the app process and he had to show proof of citizenship and residency to get admitted to a state school. Had to file a FFASFA (federal forms) to apply for aid/scholarships.

Not saying you're wrog about Cali, Look...I'm just sharing my observations. YMMV

cab83_750 · 02-16-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dueller

That's quite a leap of logic there Wayne: Hispanic=illegal=not involved=don't care.

Do you really think the jobs most illegals undertake are so "valuable" that unemployed citizens will be clamoring for them as the economy slows?

I strongly recall that a few years ago, we (legally here) complained about not finding jobs. The government then started to deport anyone illegals; employers were basically faced aifh stiff fines for hiring illegals. Then, a few months later, an article in the L.A. Times mentioned that employers whom they had interviewed had to rehire the same people (I am talking same staff who were caught and deported) because the U.S. Citizens did not want the 'dirty, low paying, jobs' that had been vacated.

Go figure!

Flatbutt1 · 02-16-2008, 05:39 PM

they may have needed to rehire replacement workers but they most certainly did not need to break the law. I have personally written letters of recommendation / justification for hiring immigrant workers who were in the process of getting legalized. It took an effort on our part but we documented our inability to get citizen workers to do the work and then sponsored immigrants for the jobs. They got work visas, payed taxes and many of them became legalized.

Hugh R · 05:48 PM

From FlatThey got work visas, payed taxes and many of them became legalized

Ok, I'll bite, just home much in income taxes does a person who makes say $10/hour actually pay? Oh, Oh! I know the answer its zero as in nothing.

Illegal aliens are a great deal for businesses. They're paid a relatively low wage and society pays the education, health care, police, fire, etc. While the illegals send a large portion of their untaxed money back to Mexico or where ever they came from. My biggest problem with illegals is that they take more out of society than they contribute. Don't give me that crap about lettuce going from $2/head to $5/head. That's just bunk. The growing and harvesting labor costs of vegetables has been shown many times to be about 10-15% of the price you pay at the supermarket.

We as a society are looking the other way at allowing the lowest skilled least educated into the country. Its called debasing society. If a business did the same thing, and couldn't shift those extraneous societal costs to us, they'd go bankrupt, like the US is going.

look 171 · 02-16-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biosurfer1

I guess it depends on what your defination of "valuable" is.
Ya it may be a ****ty position, but thats the price you pay to if you are choose to be an illegal, you get the crappy jobs if citizens dont need them.

If they have a problem with it, there is a defined process to become a citizen and all the benefits that come with it.

If they still have a problem with it, go home.

One day last year when 2 or our laborer got really sick and had to take a week off and we were back up with our construction project. My lead carpenter suggested that we pick up a couple of day laborer at Home Depot to pick up construction crap and toss them in the trash bin. I need to impress the owner who flew down every couple of weeks. These guys would NOT work unless it is $10 an hour plus lunch. They do not haul concrete or rocks. I didn't know being illegal had a choice. I was pissed, shocked and angry. I ended up having a hauling co. clean the mess up. It only cost $200 more. I would not have any problem paying that kind of money to a college kid or legal us worker to do the job. Illegals demand more pay, WTF?

An illegal driver smash my buddy's 2 week old BMW and called us names and walked away. Just freaking walked away. Cops came 15 min later and there weren't anythng they can do (These cops just didn't want to deal with it) and left. This is 7 pm at wilshire Blvd. He took it in his shorts. My mother's retired for 10 years. her SSC # were stoled and was in use for 2 years. Lucky my friend is a fed. officer pretty high up on the food chain, and he made some calls and help taken care of that problem. If not, it would have been hours on the phone and many BS visits to various agencies. until it happens to you it not so bad. I am sure there are many many really hard working ones out there and want nothing to do with trouble.

Sorry, I had to blow off some steam.

Jeff

cab83_750 · 02-16-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by look 171

...... These guys would NOT work unless it is $10 an hour plus lunch. They do not haul concrete or rocks. I didn't know being illegal had a choice. .... .

Sorry, I had to blow off some steam.

Jeff

Yeah. That is the minimum they demand; you will need to pay more for anyone with better english communications skills.

I am not proud of it, but Agoura HIlls, was (I think) the first U.S. City to ban 'corner job soliciting.' I think were were sued and lost.

Hugh R · 02-16-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

FYI, Pelican's workforce is about 40-50% hispanic, and all of our fine employees are 100% US legal-right-to-work employees.

-Wayne

Just to be clear. I have absolutely no problems with 100% legal-right-to-work employees. Because it means they're at least paying Social security, and maybe make enough to pay income taxes. Hey Wayne, don't pay them too much, I want my Porsche parts to not get any more expensive than they are (notice I didn't say I wanted them to stay cheap

).

cab83_750 · 02-16-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

FYI, Pelican's workforce is about 40-50% hispanic, and all of our fine employees are 100% US legal-right-to-work employees.

-Wayne

How about your not-so-fine employees? Are they 60%-not-US-Legal-right-to-work?

Just messing with you Wayne.

I have personally picked-up my parts and have seen your employees (even when you were at the former location).

Flatbutt1 · 02-16-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh R

From FlatThey got work visas, payed taxes and many of them became legalized

Ok, I'll bite, just home much in income taxes does a person who makes say $10/hour actually pay? Oh, Oh! I know the answer its zero as in nothing.

MMM not sure what you're biting on...My post was against the practice of hiring illegal aliens.