Dillon 650 Primer Danger

[snowman]

The problem appears to be to much tolerance in the shell plate. The hole is almost square, allowing the primer to rotate. Add to this the tolerance necessary for the shell plate to rotate freely and any slight perturbation will cause the primer to rotate. Even the slightest misalignment in the shell plate will cause the primer to rotate. The shell plate position is determined by a detent ball and spring. Not exactly a precision method of location. The spring is not strong enough to positively locate the shell plate, yet the spring is to strong to allow the free rotation of the shell plate. A no win situation and a certain reason for problems. In addition the p[rimer plate must rotate freely and align perfectly, which it does not. It tends to hang up on the mechanism that causes it to rotate. All in all it is a system that does not work reliably with the parts used. I suspect that it is a case of tolerance build up and parts that are not precise enough to do the job;. Bottom line, it don't work, for whatever reason. Pay me my standard rate of $200 per hour and I will give you a definite answer, pay more and I will give you a solution. But I suspect that they already know the answer, they just do not want to implement it due to cost.

PS I am retired so make that $500 per hour, not $200

[snowman]

The problem appears to be to much tolerance in the shell plate. The hole is almost square, allowing the primer to rotate. Add to this the tolerance necessary for the shell plate to rotate freely and any slight perturbation will cause the primer to rotate. Even the slightest misalignment in the shell plate will cause the primer to rotate. The shell plate position is determined by a detent ball and spring. Not exactly a precision method of location. The spring is not strong enough to positively locate the shell plate, yet the spring is to strong to allow the free rotation of the shell plate. A no win situation and a certain reason for problems. In addition the p[rimer plate must rotate freely and align perfectly, which it does not. It tends to hang up on the mechanism that causes it to rotate. All in all it is a system that does not work reliably with the parts used. I suspect that it is a case of tolerance build up and parts that are not precise enough to do the job;. Bottom line, it don't work, for whatever reason. Pay me my standard rate of $200 per hour and I will give you a definite answer, pay more and I will give you a solution. But I suspect that they already know the answer, they just do not want to implement it due to cost.

PS I am retired so make that $500 per hour, not $200

[snowman]

OK I am starting the list. I will add comments that I find for the next 2 weeks to this list. You can find your own list by typing 650 crushed primers into Google. The list follows: The first comment is one of the least damning.

1. Originally posted by 50ae:
I threw my red machine away when I had a bunch of primers detonate when I crushed one while priming. Dillon's system prevents this from ever happening.

not really...I've done that at least 3 times on the Dildon...not a typo! Not the whole tube...but a crushed primer will scare the shiite out of you!

But 3 times out of millions of rounds ain't too bad.

I've been in ammo factories with primer tubes stuck in the ceiling...if it goes wrong in a camdex the whole tube will fire straight up in the air!

2.DamnedDirtyApe
January 8th, 2003, 09:00 AM
I see I'm not the only one who's had problems. Thanks for the replies, all.

Symptoms are:

Won't prime S & B or WCC .45 brass that's been primed & reprimed 10 or more times .... I know about the differences in the primer pockets with these, but the Lee hand primer never had any problems with them at all. They have all been reamed and cleaned out. I have maybe 500 S & B's in my range rotation, maybe 3-400 WCC's. If I use the primer system again, I'll have to cull all these out and do them by hand...a PITA.

For no reason I can fathom (yet) the press wants to flatten out some of the primers, thus ruining many of them. It doesn't feel like they are *forced* into place, it just seems to happen.

Both large and small primers hang up in the tubes. I thought about running some Flitz through there, but haven't yet. Ran a couple of dry patches through there, didn't help.

Misfeeds galore ... hard to categorize, but maybe a lot to do with me not making a full stroke with the handle, and, again, hanging up in the tube. When it screws up, whatever the reason, it's five or ten minutes of disassembling the shell plate et al and cleaning up powder, again and again and again.

I got tired after four evenings of cleaning up powder and took the whole primer system off and put it away for now. I Lee- hand primed about 200 9mm's then loaded them in ABOUT 25 MINUTES!!! The 550 is fast!

I suppose it may take some more time for me to get used to the machine - more experience, and maybe a lesson or two from Dillon might help.

3.
Primer Problems
http://www.twoalphabullets.com/Bullet_failures/3badprimers.jpg
These three casings show the most common malady encountered when loading on a progressive press. Primers seated up side down, crushed or mauled. These were all three loaded on a Dillon 650 in the late 1980's by yours truly. Me and the press soon parted company due to its appetite for primers. I never experienced a detonation but got real tired of having to check each case for proper primer seating. Dillon took the press back no questions asked with a full refund.

4.These listings of Dillon Prmer problems goes on and on and on. I will continue to add to this list until the naysayers say Uncle.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by snowman

I suppose it may take some more time for me to get used to the machine - more experience, and maybe a lesson or two from Dillon might help.

4.These listings of Dillon Prmer problems goes on and on and on. I will continue to add to this list until the naysayers say Uncle.

Please, just get another press and get rid of the Dillon. Will give you $300 for it if you want to sell it.

Then you can complain about something else.

[Porsche_monkey]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Not saying it's your fault but based on your credentials surely you can figure out rather quickly what the problem is.

I know, not really your job but you must have some idea, even a gut instinct.

Might help Dillon fix it and maybe save someone's life.

That is what I was attempting to say.

I also think it is a bit unfair to denigrate the prodoct without knowing the root cause.

[jt1]

posted by snowman

These were all three loaded on a Dillon 650 in the late 1980's by yours truly. Me and the press soon parted company due to its appetite for primers. I never experienced a detonation but got real tired of having to check each case for proper primer seating. Dillon took the press back no questions asked with a full refund.

That's pretty amazing, since Dillon wasn't even building the 650 in the late 80's.

jt

[snowman]

I don't give a sht about the root cause, it happens, thats enough, and it happens quite often.

Joe I will take you up on your offer of $300 for the 650, PM your info and you have it.

However I will continue to warn everyone and post every 650 primer event I come across. I have found 100's so they will continue for some time to come.

[Joeaksa]

Jack,

PM sent.

Will hand carry the press to Dillon and get it reconditioned. Anyone need a good press?

Joe

[snowman]

It is as new, Dillon has checked it out so good luck.

PS I have 5 brand new Nosler 0.308 brass shells, same lot, these are $1 ea brand new, sized prepared cases, with primers installed sideways, with powder and bullets installed. This is out of a lot of 50. Thats 10% misloaded primers, a very big chance of a big problem.


Here is exactly what happened with the 45-70

NOT ONCE BUT 3 TIMES!!!!

The 0.308 did the same thing, but, fortunately without the fireworks.

Your have been warned so you are using at your own risk.

[snowman]

More Dillon danger
Castoff
Boolit Mold

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14
I have Dillon Presses and am sorry I ever bought any of them.

I have gone through the "which primer to use" nonsense with Dillon and no matter which brand of primer I was using , it was always the wrong one , according to Dillon.
Same for powders.

The problem with Dillon 650 press primer system is that the primers will partially flip and jam the machine. This then requires a disassembly of the Shell plate and the primer system.
I have heard all the excuses from Dillon I care to hear.

I hired a mechanical engineer to look at their primer system and he concluded the primer disc, which is used to rotate the primers into place, was not close enough to the part over it . This allows the primers to jump when the press is indexed and flips the primers.
Dillon, as always , disavows any knowledge of this.
Finally , in disgust, I asked them to take the 650 press back under their "No BS" guarantee.
Well, I found out that the "NO BS " guarantee is just that---------BS.
They refused to take back the press.
This plus:
1)- a powder charging system------- that by Dillon's own statement-------will only throw a powder charge plus OR minus 1.5 grains
AND
2)- a plastic indexing pawl which breaks at the drop of a hat
has completely disillusioned me with Dillon presses.
For what they charge , I think I should get better products and better customer service.

[snowman]

Another happy Dillon customer



Boolit Master

NVcurmudgeon's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pleasant Valley, NV, 400 yd. N of Galena Creek
Posts: 2,782

First off, let me say that Dillon has a fantastic warranty. "No BS" means exactly that. My Square deal, purchased in the early eighties has been factory serviced twice and both times was upgraded at no cost to me. Within normal business hours you can talk to a knowledgeable, polite, and helpful technician with a minimal wait on the phone.

It is very gratifying to me to see that others have trouble with Dillon priming systems. For over twenty years I thought that I was Dillon's stupidest customer. Maybe my using both SP and LP priming systems with my three different caliber conversons exacerbates the problems. I load .45 ACP, .44 Magnum, and 9 mm Luger. My troubles with priming are two. I frequently experience flipping of primers as castoff reports. The other, less common problem is that a primer will occasionally turn sideways and get mashed, or completely turn over and be seated backwards. Either condition is fatal to the reason for buying a progressive in the first place. I load my pistol ammunition 500 to 1000 at a time. The frequent clearing of all partially loaded rounds, and fiddling with the priming system has made me believe I can load faster on a single stage press. Well maybe, not quite, but certainly with a lot less lost and ruined primers, spilled powder, occasional powderless rounds, and Navy language. The last lot of .45 ACP I loaded went flawlessly. That was because I removed the priming system entirely, sized and decapped the cases, and removed them without charging at station 2. Then I primed the cases on the RCBS Ram Priming system of my RS3 press. Then I returned the primed cases to the SD at station two for expanding, charging, seating and crimping. This "semi-progressive" system has the advantage of much of the speed of the SD on a good day, without any of its aggravation, wasted components, shop sweeping, or misfires. So far I have resisted the temptation to order a conversion for .38 Special/.357 Magnum. The warranty is great, the "Blue Press" has cute girls (one of them looks like my wife must have about fifteen years before I met her,) but Dillon would be better off redesigning their lousy priming system.

P.S If I have heard, "Use only Federal or Winchester primers." from Dillon techs once I've heard it a dozen times. I began using WW primers only in the SD after the first phone call to Dillon, early in the Reagan administration. Sad experience and a good Starret mike told me there was little difference.
__________________
Eagles have talons, buzzards don't. The Second Amendment empowers us to be eagles. curmudgeon

[snowman]

Yes Dillon will replace all busted parts, no questions asked, just as good as Costco for replacements, ie you can't do better. BUT WTF you have primers blowing up in your face, primers loaded sideways, that you have to deprime, primers loaded upside down that have to be deprimed.

I buy and work with machines that cost $100,000 or more each, some in the millions. (These are not reloading machines, but electronic mfg equipment and CNC machines) Some do not work right, ie price means nothing for those that are impressed by price. Sometimes its impossible to get the stuff to work right, and the mfg cannot make it right. Dillon, in my opinion, is somewhere in between, can't make it work right, and won't make it right, but keeps shipping the some bad parts to keep face. Thats my opinion as an engineering professional. I understand that a reloading machine may have an occasional mishap, but 5/50 seems typical of what I have and thats just way to many mishaps.

If you have one of these and you see the same problem, I say get rid of it before it hurts you., again my humble opinion as a user.

[Joeaksa]

Jack,

We have been in touch on a regular basis on this since the 17th when you accepted my offer to buy the press.

Its been 3-4 days since I PM'ed you my FedEx shipping account number and have asked you 3 times for your email address so I can Pay Pal you the funds. No answer to my last 2 PM's.

Whats going on here? Are you backing out on the deal to sell the press or what? I have also received one PM from another Pelican asking to buy the press and if I (we as in everyone on the forum) find out that you backed out of this deal and sold it to someone else, then life on PPOT will not be good my friend.

Lets finish this deal and move on, not refuse to finish what you started or stonewall and do nothing.

Joe

[snowman]

I will be out of town for a few weeks. I will finish this withing the next 6 weeks.

[on2wheels52]

Joe
I'd have thought you'd learned your lesson about buying one of those things from a PP member.
Jim

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by on2wheels52

Joe
I'd have thought you'd learned your lesson about buying one of those things from a PP member.
Jim

Jim,

I am buying it to find it a new home. Already believe that I have someone who wants it. Will take it by Dillon, explain the situation and have them really go through it then lets find it a new home.

Did have to chuckle at your email though!

Joe

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by snowman

I will be out of town for a few weeks. I will finish this withing the next 6 weeks.

Jack,

Any news on this?

Joe

[snowman]

Just finished sizing, decaping, cleaning trimming 500 0.308 cases. Sized to SAMMI chamber min. -0.001". Headspace is SAMMI min +0.002". All 2005 once fired M118 LR brass, weight matched. I will start putting primers in them sometime next week and we will see what happens. Note the sizing die will be removed for this operation, so as not to JAR the machine with that operation. Will keep you informed. I will be using CCI BR2 primers.

[Joeaksa]

Jack,

We agreed to this on the 2nd of May. Its now the third week of June. Its been 6 weeks now.

Lets get this finished.

Joe

[snowman]

Been out of state for 4 weeks. Just getting back to loading primers.