747 Breaks in half during takeoff

[Normy]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

If I'm not mistaken, Kalitta Air is who Normy used to fly for prior to his current FedEx gig - should be interesting to hear his thoughts on this one. . .

Correct-O...

Tonight, my cellphone basically hates me. Just about everyone I know, aviation and non-aviation, has called me today to ask me about this incident. Part of it is the fact that I worked for that company for 3 1/2 years, and part of it is that I lived in Brussels for a few years. I'll tell you all just what I have told them: I don't know what happened. I have a few ideas....but I'm going to keep them to myself since the investigation is still ongoing, my ruminations will do nobody any good, and others have and will come to the same conclusion that I have anyway.

I know the Captain of that flight. I consider him VERY skilled and knowledgeable. In my opinion, if it happened to him, it can happen to nearly any pilot. But the main thing that I am happy about, and this is pretty much a miracle: Nobody was hurt.

The fact that the fuel tanks didn't rupture is amazing! In my opinion, the airplane broke apart as it tried to stop- it didn't break apart first and then slide to a stop, the impacts with whatever objects exist at the end of runway 20. What's more, that runway, which is 9800 feet long and 164 feet wide, is certainly adequate for most takeoff weights of the B747-200. I've flown that exact airplane- N704CK, and I have taken off from runway 20 in BRU in 727's and 747's multiple times, so there is no issue with performance. Something else happened.

Well, the only way to prevent any aircraft accidents from occuring is to stop flying airplanes. And since that's not a good idea...I guess all we can do is to do our best to fly safely, and expect a few incidents to occur. Remember, aviation [just like a fast car] isn't inherently dangerous; it is just VERY unforgiving of any carelessness or neglect.

Hmm! You know what sucks? That airplane was my favorite among Connie's fleet. It was equipped with Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7R engines; our other planes had -7Q motors, which were quite a bit weaker. That thing would take a full load and climb like nothing was there! I once ferried it from Nashville to Dover, Delaware, and we had about a 25 degree deck angle all the way to 41,000 feet. You've got to love a big airplane with even BIGGER engines! Something that is true at airlines is that we get to know our airplanes. At the majors, that isn't generally possible since they usually have several hundred. Kalitta had 15 airplanes when I was there, and 25 now, and I knew each of them. Just like Porsche's.....each one has a personality.

N!

PS: Pictures are of the airplane that was destroyed in Brussels, taken in Nashville.
Sad trivia point: This is the airplane that was used as "Air Force One" in the movie of the same name.

[mossguy]

Normy says 9800', Joeaksa says 12,000'. Why the difference? I'm curious. Or are we talking about different runways?

Tom

[Normy]

Originally Posted by Mule

Connie's supposed to be a cheap SOB. Lack of maintenance? Maybe he's trying to save up to beat Schumacher?

Connie is definitely "cheap". And he's "cheap" on maintenance for sure- he hires mechanics on the cheap...guys straight out of school and guys with police records. But in 3 1/2 years of flying his [ugly, oil-leaking] planes... the worst thing that I ever saw was a badly overheating electrical generator transmission.

[yes, the alternators on the 747's engines use what amounts to a light truck automatic transmission to make sure that they always spin at a constant speed so that they can produce a constant frequency for the flight instruments]

I just followed the checklist and "disconnected" or shut down the constant-speed drive. Some of my friends had far worse problems, but not me.

Hmm? I thought that Connie Kalitta was an NHRA drag racer. I didn't know that he was now interested in Formula One. How fast can the typical Formula One car cover a quarter mile?

N!

[Normy]

Originally Posted by mossguy

Normy says 9800', Joeaksa says 12,000'. Why the difference? I'm curious. Or are we talking about different runways?

Tom

Runway 25R at Brussels is 11936 feet long. They took off on runway 20. We are both "right".

N

[mossguy]

Originally Posted by Normy

Runway 25R at Brussels is 11936 feet long. They took off on runway 20. We are both "right".

N

Thanks!

Tom

[rick-l]

from the story

Vermeiren said the pilot told rescue authorities he heard a loud noise while trying to take off, after which he tried to land the plane.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by silverc4s

Wonder if the pilot noticed any "cowl shake" ??

LOL. Ah, to own my targa again.....

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Connie Kalitta is rather infamous in our biz. The cheapest, most crass S.O.B. we have to deal with from our service engineering department. Flies the most crapped out old P.O.S's in the air.

Ameriflight is worse. Trust me on this.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by mossguy

Normy says 9800', Joeaksa says 12,000'. Why the difference? I'm curious. Or are we talking about different runways?

Tom

Different runways.

A lot depends on the weight of the aircraft during takeoff. If the airplane is really heavy many times the captain has no choice on which runway to use and uses the longest that there is.

Evidently the weight was not too bad or the winds really favored this runway so they used it over the longer runway.

Vermeiren said the pilot told rescue authorities he heard a loud noise while trying to take off, after which he tried to land the plane.

I would not read a lot into this statement as its probably coming from someone who is not a pilot. Once the airplane hits V1 (takeoff decision speed) every pilot is trained to continue the takeoff if there is a problem and if needed bring the airplane back around for a landing again. Once you reach this speed you are going flying and unless something major happens AND you have miles of runway ahead of you, its safer to keep the airplane in the air and bring it back around.

Like Normy says, lets wait a week-10 days and see what really happened and not start guessing.

[David]

Originally Posted by Normy

Hmm? I thought that Connie Kalitta was an NHRA drag racer. I didn't know that he was now interested in Formula One. How fast can the typical Formula One car cover a quarter mile?

N!

That would be NHRA driver Tony Schumacher, the long lost cousin who couldn't turn

[pbflyz]

Originally Posted by Normy

Connie is definitely "cheap". And he's "cheap" on maintenance for sure- he hires mechanics on the cheap...guys straight out of school and guys with police records.

N!

Connie is cheap, though he recently got a bunch of good former NWA mechanics after NW busted the mechanics union... lot's of 747 experience there now.

Also, +1 on those 'R" powered classics. I loved those engines: Lots of thrust on those 830k takeoffs. I believe that they had one more stage of compression over the "Q"s. (It goes to 11!)
I don't fly them anymore, but I miss the airplane and am fortunate in that I never had to make that high-speed abort decision. That's a tough one.

Anyway, it's sad to see the loss of a nice machine, but the important thing is that the crew was able to walk away.

[Normy]

Originally Posted by pbflyz

Connie is cheap, though he recently got a bunch of good former NWA mechanics after NW busted the mechanics union... lot's of 747 experience there now.

Also, +1 on those 'R" powered classics. I loved those engines: Lots of thrust on those 830k takeoffs. I believe that they had one more stage of compression over the "Q"s. (It goes to 11!)
I don't fly them anymore, but I miss the airplane and am fortunate in that I never had to make that high-speed abort decision. That's a tough one.

Anyway, it's sad to see the loss of a nice machine, but the important thing is that the crew was able to walk away.

Very true. "There but for the grace of god go I" and all. We train that exact scenario incessantly in the simulator. That might be part of the problem: When I'm in the "torture box", I expect to blow a motor on every take off, so I am spring-loaded to pound the rudder pedal to keep the airplane on the runway, and I'm concentrating on the decision: stop or go? all the way down the runway. In the real airplane, I'm not quite as ready, though I have a little technique: I keep my hand on the throttles until V1. As soon as I hear "V1", I take my hands off. If an engine blows up or the fire warning bell sounds, the fact that my hands aren't on the throttles reminds me to "go" instead of trying to stop.

There is only one accident that I can recall in which I would have attempted to stop the plane after V1: the incident in Detroit where a 727 clipped the wing of a DC-9 that had wandered onto an active runway in fog. Just past V1, the two planes hit and the 727 lost about 1/3 of its' left wing. That Captain managed to stop his 178,000 pound airplane from 145 mph in the remaining runway....just barely! Both planes were destroyed, but nobody was killed.

N

[BlueSideUp]

Wow I can imagine that the 727 probably needed the pilot seat cushions MEL'd after that accident. Sort of reminds me of that FAA video regarding the United crew getting lost in the fog, where was that...maybe Providence?

Ever see that video of UPS offroading a 747 in Asia? Apparently it was a high speed abort and they didn't use wet runway data even though it was wet. A security camera caught the abort on tape.

[svandamme]

lot's of hoopla in the news bout how the folks living in that area had seen it coming, due to the short length of that runway and how heavy freight planes supposedly always have to really push it to take off there, and end up crawling upwards after take off

[beepbeep]

I read some rumors about a loud sound. Maybe a compressor stall (hardly a reason to abort past V1, no? Weren't those early PW's prone to compressor stalls?) or maybe shifting cargo (probably worse?)

I bet all that off-roading did the fuselage in. They maybe leaking Hydrol but I seriously doubt that fuselage was so deteriorated that it cracked on it's own. Dragging gear on a fully loaded 747 trough bumps or mud would probably crack any 747.

Plane was N704CK, ex China Airlines (aren't they kinda hard on their equipment?) http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b747-22299.htm

[Aurel]

Originally Posted by red-beard

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358041,00.html



ONLY 4 injured.

"Airport officials said the plane was carrying cargo weighing 76 tons, over half of which was diplomatic mail. Other cargo included a car and batteries."


Diplomatic mail. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

E-mail would have cost less....

Aurel

[Normy]

"Diplomatic mail"....means mail bound for soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Often times car and truck parts too. Brussels is a refueling stop for Kalitta Air. We never on/off loaded any cargo there.

Occasionally, on the way back to Belgium from the middle east....we carried "HR"'s. Guess what "HR" stands for...

N

[Nicole]

Hot Redheads.

[Noah930]

Wonder what kind of car?

[rouxroux]

Originally Posted by Normy

Occasionally, on the way back to Belgium from the middle east....we carried "HR"'s. Guess what "HR" stands for...

N

human remains