747 Breaks in half during takeoff

[Normy]

I have looked and looked at this thread.

-Me and the Captain in question? He's a VERY VERY proficient pilot. And though I've never flown with him, the people that have flown with me and who have flown with him and have talked about him to me have told me that he's very good. Unfortunately, me and him had had some personal differences about 18 months ago. He thinks I'm an assh*le and I think he's a bigotted pr*ck.

There is more than "stick and rudder" to flying a plane. Nearly everyone reading this is capable of flying that plane. Buy Microsoft's flight simulator and fly the thing all around the world; driving a 928 isn't 181 numbers easier than driving a 747....trust me.

WHAT is difficult, and its' why I have a nice salary...is making decisions. Knowing when to abort the takeoff, when to continue and fly back to the airport after a takeoff....and things such as "where are we going?" Do we have the rights to land there? And things such as the fact that the 747's engines are not started by electric motors like the engine in my 928: they are started by air turbines. That means I need air pressure. I have a turbine engine mounted in the tail to give me that air pressure, but there is NO law that says that it has to work. If I show up for a flight and my flight paperwork shows that this engine is out of service, then it is up to me to make sure that the airport in Gander, New Foundland or Shannon, Ireland has a "huffer", or ground air cart to start the engine.

With big jets, if you are NOT 125 miles ahead of the airplane at all times...you are already behind!

From what I've read online, the crew on this one had an engine "compressor-stalling" or backfiring at a late stage on the runway. Listen to me- I have a 747 type rating and 1000 hours in the right seat/ 500 hours as Captain, and I can tell y'all one thing about this 747 design: It has WEAK BRAKES!

My first takeoff in this airplane? It scared the hell out of me. A runway nearly 12,000 feet long in Anchorage, and when the training Captain that I was flying with called "V1"...I was like "Oh yeah....RIGHT!" We used up nearly ALL of that runway just to get off the ground. If I had aborted and POUNDED the brake pedals into the floor we still would have gone off the end of runway 32 and into the Knik Arm!

I flew for Kalitta Air for 3 1/2 years. This carrier is safe, and their maintenance is what I would call "decent". The airplanes are not perfect, but if the law had allowed it, I wouldn't have had any qualms putting my family on one of our freight 747's for a flight around the world. Claims that Kalitta Air is "unsafe" are utter horse*****. Hell! I'm typing this to you now after spending 1250 hours flying on their planes!

I still don't know why that plane ran off the end of the runway in Zaventem and broke apart due to the waves in the grass at the end. But I will go ahead and tell you about the Kalitta Air performance system. Every time the airplane takes- off or lands, a piece of paper is given to the Captain and First Officer with a set of speeds. The wing of a 747 is designed for 600 miles per hour. It isn't designed for 170 miles per hour, the speed that an 820,000 pound airplane like N704CK needs to lift off, so the speeds on that card, computed by a simple laptop computed mounted in the airplane, tell the pilot when to take off. Thise speeds are based upon wing flaps extended. Wing flaps add curvature to the wing, and allow it to develop the same amount of lift at 170 mph as it did at 600 mph.

Uhmm...we don't just get screaming down the runway and pull the plane off the ground when we feel like it- we do it at a carefully computed speed, and that speed depends upon atmospheric conditions and WEIGHT. The more you weigh, and the hotter it is, the higher the speed before you "pull back" on the control yoke. But there is another speed: V1. V1 is "takeoff decision speed", and the laptop computes this as well. This speed is pure "accelerative prowess". The long and short: if you have an engine EXPLODE and litterally fall off the wing prior to this speed, then you abort the takeoff, pull the engines to idle, pull up the speed brakes [the "air brake" panels on top of the wing], and POUND the brake pedals into the nose.

-If your weight information is correct....according to Boeing's performance computations....your airplane will stop before the remaining concrete runs out. You won't go off the end of the runway and try out the 4 x 4 capabilities of an intercontinental heavy jet~

But if you are beyond V1....you are almost CERTAIN to do that! You cannot stop this airplane beyond V1 speed. V1 and "Vr" or the speed when you actually pull the plane off the ground can occur as much as 10 seconds apart~! There is the trap for the 747 Captain. V1 passes, and then a few seconds later...POW! ka-POW! POW! POW POW POW POW! He hears. What would you do if you suddenly heard several loud backfires from your car? Well, if you are beyond V1 you are supposed to fight your urge to stop the plane and actually take off. This is pure physics- if you do what your reflexes tell you to do, then you will certainly run the risk of running off the end of the runway.

That airplane, N704CK? It probably has a market value, as equipped, of right around $10 million. I bet that they probably had to sedate Connie Kalitta right after this happened! Oh my god that guy-his temper is enough to cause him to take swings at people when they so much as blow a tire-!

If I were Captain [name deleted]...I would have gone to a different hotel in Brussels on my own nickel just to put off the inevitable meeting with my boss~

N!

[Joeaksa]

Norm,

Thats why we take our hands off of the throttles after the "V1" call, to prevent ourselves from retarding the throttles. Thats also why we move our right hand from the throttles to the yoke to reinforce the fact that "we are flying now no matter what."

This Captain was experienced and he was the one in command that day. He made the decision to abort. Stop. He had his reasons for it and none of us were not there so until the full report comes out thats about all I will say about it.

Totally agree with your comments on BFL (balanced field length) and the airplane SHOULD be able to stop in this distance. Problem is that in this case the captain aborted AFTER V1, so the distances on the TOLD card (Take Off and Landing Distance card) just went out the window.

Have not had to use a "huffer" in years and hope I never have to use one again! Course its better than a cross bleed engine start I guess!

Joe

PS I used to be a freight dog and flew several airplanes that had engines that were overhauled or "hot sectioned" by Connies company. They were the weakest of the bunch and their high altitude performance was crap. You can say that they were a good company all you want but some of their MX is doggypoo and considered the cheapest in the industry. Just an observation from someone who has over 8,000 hours flying cargo... and thats only my "cargo time."

[URY914]

Found these...

[Normy]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

One of the guys at my Memorial Day BBQ was a FAA guy. Very interesting discussions about this carrier. He at one time worked in that part of the country and had some exposure to the company. He would not tell us any details but suffice to say that Connie and the gang who run the place sure seem to spend more time getting around the rules than it would take to just do it right!

At meetings with pilots, Connie wasn't shy about telling us that he likes to play poker with officials. And he was more than happy to tell us that he's "A really bad f*ckin' poker player" when he's playing against an important foreign aviation official. Sure. Connie probably has genius-level IQ. Oh well....according to him foreign aviation agents are apparently VERY good at poker, so they always take LARGE sums of money from the table.

I suspect that FAA officials are also extremely good at card games. These government employees must be geniuses too~

N!

[air-cool-me]

YAHOOO that would be a steep drop even with the slide inflated....

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by air-cool-me

YAHOOO that would be a steep drop even with the slide inflated....

We have to take that ride down the slides and jump in the pool every few years during training. Its a hoot and takes us out of the boring classrooms for a bit...

Would rather not do it in real life.... ever!

[Brian 162]

Looking at that picture you survived the initial impact then getting killed going down the shute.

[air-cool-me]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

We have to take that ride down the slides and jump in the pool every few years during training. Its a hoot and takes us out of the boring classrooms for a bit...

Would rather not do it in real life.... ever!

My friend was taking a tour of Frontiers training facilities last summer... he said its kinda funny to watch everyone new get into the life rafts why the instructors were nailing them with hoses....

Looks like the ditch its hanging over might be making it a bit more exciting(IE steeper) maybe thats where the injurys came from.. although.. i always wonder...

My flight bag weighs a ton... would it be flying around like a 35lb brick in a crash like that?


Hey joe, how come we never had that beer in Phx?

that champ still for sale?

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by air-cool-me

Hey joe, how come we never had that beer in Phx?

that champ still for sale?

Probably because you and I travel for a living and are not in the same place at the same time! Been gone part of March, all of April and got home on the 18th of May. Been here since and no plans on flying anytime soon but have recurrent on the first week of July.

May have some other things going on, so if you get near Phoenix let me know.

Which Champ was that? I know of several available. Also am going to the national fly-in for Aeronca's next weekend so if you are looking for one let me know.

Joe