The Dillon 650 performance evaluation

[snowman]

I may have discovered the primer problem with the Dillon 650. The photo, above was taken with the shell plate removed and the primer fed normally. Somehow this one got in at an angle. More surprising is that the primer stayed in this position as it was rotated into position, see next 2 photos.

[snowman]

So how can this happen? The primer plate must be misaligned when the primer drops into place, causing the primer to rotate. More investigation revealed that the primer feed is not indexing correctly all the time. The black marks show that the primer wheel is not always stopping in the correct place, see offset circles.



There is no user adjustment for this condition that I know of.

In any case I talked to Dillon and they sent me a new primer system which I will be using for this evaluation. In addition to documenting all the adjustments I will try to put a video camera on the primer indexing bar to see if there is a detectable problem there. There should be, but it might be so small that it isn't easily observable. The primer disk only has to be off a few thousands for the primer to get tipped. The next question is how does the primer stay in that position with the shell plate and other things that it has to rotate between? Must be enough clearance to permit it to happen. Even if the shell plate were grossly under tightened (or in this case not even present) the primer feed should have taken care of it, but it didn't. Could it be something pushing down or up on the primer disk, along with a bit of powder that sets up enough clearance?

This is actually encouraging in that identifying the actual problem is the first step in fixing it. And this is NOT an operator problem if it is what I have seen so far.

This is still just speculation at this point. Much more testing will reveal whatever is going on with more certainty.

Also I don't see this primer problem reported for the 550 or 1050. They have differen't primer feeds than the 650, so whatever there is that is differen't must be responsible.

[Cdnone1]

Where is the original thread of the sale?

Steve

[jt1]

I'm surprised the press will even operate with all that loose powder lying around in the priming mechanism. That is most likely the cause of your problem, and a loose shell plate could be a contributing factor. It's pretty hard for a primer to sit level with several grains of powder underneath it.

John

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by snowman

This is still just speculation at this point. Much more testing will reveal whatever is going on with more certainty.

Jack,

You said this would be done in 6 weeks over 2 months ago.

When will the "testing" be completed? Hope that this is not going to be a "never ending social experiment."

Joe

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Cdnone1

Where is the original thread of the sale?

Steve

Here it is: Dillon 650 Primer Danger

[snowman]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Jack,

You said this would be done in 6 weeks over 2 months ago.

When will the "testing" be completed? Hope that this is not going to be a "never ending social experiment."

Joe

ITs not never ending, I am retired, I never get a break, its retired, retired, retired, every day. Time is irrelevant to getting to the bottom of this machine. Like I said before, If I knew what I know now, I would have bought something else. Since there seems to be a lot of baseless propaganda that the 650 is the "best" I think an honest analysis needs to be posted for anyone considering this machine. I have never been good at estimating time to completion, I am an engineer and scientist, not a bean counter.

The 1050 appears to deserve its reputation, all of the internet chatter seems to support that, so for now I will accept it.

The same seems to go for the 550, a far more popular model than the 650 because of cost. It also does not have negative press on the internet, like the 650 does.

So far the negative press on the 650 seems to be accurate, at least as far as my experience goes. Maybe I will determine the cause of the "problem" or maybe not, time will tell. My motive is to give everyone considering this machine the best possible analysis of its performance. As an aside, I might discover something that Dillon can use to improve the performance of it which will benefit everyone.

As to precision reloading, I have found that a progressive reloader has certain drawbacks. Unless you have new brass, you need to interrupt the process after sizing to remove lubricant, to clean the brass, and trim the brass to length. Thats what I am doing. As to new brass, I have used Nosler, which is pre sized, pre trimmed, pre cleaned, consequently those steps need to be skipped. The progressive press seems to make sense if your just plinking a lot of lead and don;'t care about extreme accuracy.

As to the knucklehead that keeps commenting about the lose shell plate and powder ( of which only few individual pieces are present) you do not know what you are talking about. I have clearly shown the problem WITHOUT the shell plate in place. Read the fking post will you! By the way, a tight shell plate is a problem, not a lose one. A problem with this machine is if you do not tighten the set screw on the shell plate adjustment, it gradually gets to tight to turn, it does not get lose. A consequence of to tight is misalignment of everything. I have shown that the problem seems to be in the primer feed, which has not relation to the shell plate in this case. You have no clue do you? As to powder, any reloader that cannot function without some spilled powder (almost impossible to prevent due to vibrations) isn't worth a nickel. There was no spilled powder that I found in the photo I presented that would or should have interfered with proper function. a few grains are IMPOSSIBLE to avoid. To prove this point, just visit any gun store that displays working re loaders and look at how much spilled powder there is on them.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Here it is: Dillon 650 Primer Danger

Now that I know the back story...I want to beat my head against the monitor anytime I see snowman post.


Are there no Pelicans with bad attitudes in SoCal that would go and pick this thing up in person?

[Drdogface]

Snowman,

Most reloaders find the 650 to be wonderful...but not without occasional problems. I own two. I find the primer feed mechanism to be about the only problem. It has a lot of parts that intermesh with small clearance so it must be kept clean. It is possible you have one that was not precisely aligned or manufactured and the 'No BS' Dillon warranty will fix that.

I have loaded thousands of rounds and, yes, powder does spill and I have not had that much of a problem with it. Once you get the new priming system, install it carefully and see how it works. Maybe all will be fine. If not, rid yourself of it and move on to the 550B. Not as fast as a 650 but less complicated. The 1050 is a commercial machine and does not have the same warranty as the others..last time I checked and it's even more complex than the 650.

Good luck...

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by snowman

ITs not never ending, I am retired, I never get a break, its retired, retired, retired, every day. Time is irrelevant to getting to the bottom of this machine. Like I said before, If I knew what I know now, I would have bought something else. Since there seems to be a lot of baseless propaganda that the 650 is the "best" I think an honest analysis needs to be posted for anyone considering this machine. I have never been good at estimating time to completion, I am an engineer and scientist, not a bean counter.

Jack,

If its not "never ending" then lets set a timetable and stick to it. You were the one who set the first time table of "six weeks" and now do not seem to care that you made an agreement with me over this.

"Getting to the bottom of this" was never part of the agreement that you made with me, but getting rid of a dangerous machine was.

"Time may be irrelevant" to you but its not that way with the rest of the world.

Please, you made an agreement, now lets set a schedule and stick to it.

Joe

[jt1]

As to powder, any reloader that cannot function without some spilled powder (almost impossible to prevent due to vibrations) isn't worth a nickel. There was no spilled powder that I found in the photo I presented that would or should have interfered with proper function. a few grains are IMPOSSIBLE to avoid. To prove this point, just visit any gun store that displays working re loaders and look at how much spilled powder there is on them.

You are amazing.

I would never run any of my presses with that much powder and primer residue on them. If a grain of powder gets on the primer punch it will leave a nice powder grain sized indention in the primer when it seats. Not a good situation, but one that is easily remedied by a quick cleaning. I guess Dillon is supposed to come do that for you?

John

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I think "retired" is a euphemism for "between jobs" which is a euphemism for "out of work" in this particular case.

[t951]

Does anyone here care about the results of snowmans "research"?

I know I don't.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I know I'd never hire him to engineer a paper clip for me.

The rest of the world expects things done properly, but also in a reasonable time frame. This guy wouldn't last two weeks dealing with our projects.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by t951

Does anyone here care about the results of snowmans "research"?

I know I don't.

I view this thread as a window into the spiralling of Snowman into an inescapable black hole of insanity. I think that 99% of the people here could care less about a Dillon 650, but watching Snowman's inevitable collapse (simply read his posts in other threads) is like driving past a car wreck - you just can't help but look...

[Pazuzu]

And we're all waiting for that poorly typed post where he documents (with pictures!) how he finally proved that, yes, the Dillon 650 reloader CAN fail in such a way that a large burned hole is formed through one's palm...

[jeffgrant]

Originally Posted by t951

Does anyone here care about the results of snowmans "research"?

I know I don't.

Only as a pre-qualifier for the Darwin Awards. He's moved the "hey, watch this!" aspect of the typical redneck demise to the virtual world.

Kudos to you sir, kudos to you.

[craigster59]

Lawyer: Mr. Snowman, do you have proof that the Dillon 650 was defective, dangerous and was the sole cause for your injuries?

Snowman: Yes, I have all pictures and documentation.

Lawyer: And where is this proof Mr. Snowman?

Snowman: I posted it on a Porsche website.

Lawyer: Ohhkayy......

[snowman]

Note my high level of concern over your remarks. Wake me up when youall are done.

[snowman]

I think the primer feed system is where the problem is with the 650. The company and everyone else is looking at everything but where the problem actually happens. Looking at the primer feed mechanism separately, it dosen't seem possible for a problem to occur there, but there it is, primers jamming and flipping, and exploding. My photo of an upset primer was just luck, but there it is and it is EXACTLY what we are looking for.

Thinking back to earlier primer problems, just prior to the explosions, I had primers jamming up in the primer wheel. The primers did not drop out if they passed the loading stage. The primer feed ratchet mechanism was jamming and missing engagement with the next hole (partly because there was a primer in the hole that should have not been there) sometimes for no apparent reason. There is clearly a problem in this area of the machine.

Please, no more BS comments that do not contribute to the function of the machine, you all have already demonstrated that you have no clue as to the operation of a 650.

A machine that has clear able jams is one thing, one that leaves holes in your ceiling is another.

My hero, GW Bush, has a saying, it ain't over till its over, you can't put a time frame on some things.